How long does UST have?

[Dewey]

Yes, it's counted from the "concluded" 341 Meeting. The operative word is "concluded". Unless and until the Trustee concludes your 341 Meeting, which you'll know at the end of the 341 Meeting, the clock hasn't started.

So, if your 341 Meeting is actually concluded on September 2, the Trustee will have until September 14th to make his/her statement, if any, on presumption of abuse.

JustBroke,

Could you please define a "concluded" 341 meeting? Is there where the TT comes back in and says they haven't found any assets, yada yada yada and then ask to be dismissed from the case?

I detailed my situation in earlier posts about my in-laws perpetrating all that fraud on us and then declaring bankruptcy to get out of it when we discovered it. I involved the UST with all the hidden assets, false oaths, etc. Their 341 went horribly bad, however the UST was not present. I don't know if he has done anything.

The 341 was the end of May and the TT still hasn't put that discharge statement in. Instead, she recently changed them from a no-asset to an asset case when the in-laws amended their schedule and included some (not all) of the assets we listed in our AP.

So I guess my question is....if the TT hasn't put that statement in, then the 341 isn't concluded and the clock hasn't even started for the UST to convert of dismiss?

[justbroke]

Could you please define a "concluded" 341 meeting? Is there where the TT comes back in and says they haven't found any assets, yada yada yada and then ask to be dismissed from the case?

Concluded is where they don't schedule another 341 Meeting. You'll know this at the end of your 341 Meeting.

(I'm actually confused about the clock being from the "concluded" 341 Meeting. The Code seems to say that the Trustee only has 10-days from the first scheduled 341 Meeting, but in practice, I have read about cases where the Trustee does so 10-days from the concluded 341 Meeting. However, there is some caselaw (see In Re: Close, Case No. 06-20195, District of Kansas) where the Judge concluded that the Code does not allow the Trustee to move that date beyond the 10-days after the first 341 Meeting. Confusing, so I hope I didn't confuse you or anyone else by it. It just seems that Trustees are enjoying it both ways!)

So I guess my question is....if the TT hasn't put that statement in, then the 341 isn't concluded and the clock hasn't even started for the UST to convert of dismiss?

You r341 Meeting was concluded unless the Trustee told you at your 341 Meeting that they needed to "continue" the meeting to a later date.

Based on how the Code reads (11 USC 704), the Trustee has to file the statement within 10-days of "the first meeting of creditors".

Anyhow, don't think your UST is after you for abuse... looks like they're looking for assets instead.

[justbroke]

TI was thinking last night that there really should be a place as filers in which we can claim that the system is abusing us! I know what would happen if I showed up for the hearing and my attorney doesn't. I tried to fire my Chapter 13 attorney and ended up ProSe in front of the Federal Judge. It wasn't pretty. He was not at all happy to see us approach his bench w/o our attorney.

I'm glad that I have a Judge and State that seems to be comfortable with Pro Se filers.

[Dewey]

Concluded is where they don't schedule another 341 Meeting. You'll know this at the end of your 341 Meeting.

(I'm actually confused about the clock being from the "concluded" 341 Meeting. The Code seems to say that the Trustee only has 10-days from the first scheduled 341 Meeting, but in practice, I have read about cases where the Trustee does so 10-days from the concluded 341 Meeting. However, there is some caselaw (see In Re: Close, Case No. 06-20195, District of Kansas) where the Judge concluded that the Code does not allow the Trustee to move that date beyond the 10-days after the first 341 Meeting. Confusing, so I hope I didn't confuse you or anyone else by it. It just seems that Trustees are enjoying it both ways!)

You r341 Meeting was concluded unless the Trustee told you at your 341 Meeting that they needed to "continue" the meeting to a later date.

Based on how the Code reads (11 USC 704), the Trustee has to file the statement within 10-days of "the first meeting of creditors".

Anyhow, don't think your UST is after you for abuse... looks like they're looking for assets instead.

I also understood the clock to start from the first scheduled 341 in the code.

I think I confused you a bit....I'm the creditor. All the debt owed to us was fraud by the in-law debtors. We even had a police report 5 months before they filed. Plus, they've tried to defraud the court.

We were present for their 341 Meeting, but we didn't stay until the very end. So we don't know what the TT told them. We do know that the TT is looking for assets and obviously discovered some since they were recently converted from a no-asset case to an asset case and we received a notice to file a claim.

Do you think it is a good indication that they were continued if there is no report from the TT when the 341 was in May? We have another case we're monitoring that was filed only 3 days before theirs, and that one is already discharged.

[justbroke]

Do you think it is a good indication that they were continued if there is no report from the TT when the 341 was in May? We have another case we're monitoring that was filed only 3 days before theirs, and that one is already discharged.

No. You can only tell by looking at PACER.

If they are an asset case, the report won't come for months and months... as the Trustee needs to administer the case in order to create a report. Asset cases take at least 6 months (generally) to close on average. Some cases can go 12 months or more. It all depends on how long it takes for the Trustee to liquidate or recover property.

[Dewey]

No. You can only tell by looking at PACER.

If they are an asset case, the report won't come for months and months... as the Trustee needs to administer the case in order to create a report. Asset cases take at least 6 months (generally) to close on average. Some cases can go 12 months or more. It all depends on how long it takes for the Trustee to liquidate or recover property.

That's what I'm talking about....there's been no report from the TT on PACER in regards to the 341.

[justbroke]

That's what I'm talking about....there's been no report from the TT on PACER in regards to the 341.

There is no report. Look at the "Deadlines" link and see if the 341 Meeting is set as "Terminated".

There would be no "report" or "docket entry" for a concluded 341 Meeting. The 341 Meeting is not a Court proceeding.

[Dewey]

There is no report. Look at the "Deadlines" link and see if the 341 Meeting is set as "Terminated".

There would be no "report" or "docket entry" for a concluded 341 Meeting. The 341 Meeting is not a Court proceeding.

Thanks so much! I'll check it. I knew you would know!

[2manybills]

Dewey: Is your debt being discharged as part of this BK? Money due and owing from fraud is usually not a dischargeable debt.

[want2save]

When you speak of closing being at least 6 months in an asset case, is that from date of filing or the date of the 341?? Hope someone will respond as this is important to me. Thank you!

[Dewey]

Dewey: Is your debt being discharged as part of this BK? Money due and owing from fraud is usually not a dischargeable debt.

Not if I can prevent it. They're trying to discharge it, but I filed an adversary proceeding.

We don't have a judgement for fraud since they voluntarily signed a Promissory Note secured by a Deed of Trust in lieu of us taking them to civil court.

We're secured on paper, but the reality is that we are wholly unsecured. The Court lifted the stay and the mortgage company is foreclosing and will wipe us out (not enough equity now due to decreased home values). So we have to have the fraud judgment in the court to determine that it is non-dischargeable once and for all.

Proving that it was fraud is a piece of cake. We even had our police report filed four months before they filed bankruptcy. Their problems are not only the original fraud, but the fraud in the court they've been trying to get away with. (Due to this, we're challenging the discharge of our debt and their entire discharge...523 (a) objection and 727 (a) objection). We understand our case is the talk of the trustee's office.

I'll just be glad when this is all over.

[2manybills]

It will be interesting to watch for sure.

[justbroke]

When you speak of closing being at least 6 months in an asset case, is that from date of filing or the date of the 341?? Hope someone will respond as this is important to me. Thank you!

Usually from date of filing, but most importantly in an Asset Case is how quickly the Trustee can administer the assets. This takes time. In some cases, the Trustee needs to wait for the Debtor(s) to file their taxes and surrender their tax refund to the Trustee. You can't speed that up.