"Debtor could reasonably be expected to reduce living expenses"

[alorth]

All I can say is that after a year and a half of my daughter in Montessori, I will defend it and the type of all-around education she is receiving to the end. I am a witness to the difference, and not just in the 'nuts and bolts' ABC's and stuff, but in attitude, and listening, and respect for others, and so much more. You may say its 'not worth it', or that its 'just taking your money', but not in my experience. And breaking it down hourly, she is spending 60 hours/month in preschool, so at $600/month (actually a little less), I'd say that $10/hr. for what she is getting out of it is a bargain. I could not provide the social development in and of itself even if I took her to the park every single day....which I pretty much do when the weather is decent.

People are entitled to their own opinions in this country, and I respect that. But you will never get me to change my opinion on Montessori after my year and a half (so far) of being involved with it. And I wasn't even the one who pushed it initially....it was my wife as she had spent many of her pre-school through elementary years in Montessori. When my daughter started, I didn't know Montessori from anything else, but now that I do, I would fight for it harder than just about anything.

[Exployer1234]

I'm not either. It could be a point of contention. She only spends 3 hours/day 5 days/wk there, but I feel she is learning so much more than I could give to her on my own. I do take care of her myself the rest of the time. Montessori schools are known to be high cost...and I can hear the UST or Judge saying we 'just can't afford it' now that we're in BK. maybe they're right, but I do feel its in the best interest of my daughter, and intend to fight for it.

Alorth I am sorry for what you are going through.

Montessori schools can be great, but often the children do not learn any more in that type of school. I am a preschool teacher. I create lesson plans and do all the same thing that a Montessori school does. The only difference in my school and a Montessori school is that a child is not made to complete worksheets. What I mean by this is my students learn from creative activities. You really should visit a lot of different school out there. You may find a school that actually is better for less money. The cost for a student to attend the preschool program at my school is 400 dollars per month. The last preschool I worked at charged 440 and that was for an all day program. Look around you may be shocked that there is more to many schools.

You want to look at the qualifications of the staff. Make sure the program is a 3-star program. This means that one or more teachers have a BA or a BS degree, over 75% of the other staff have to have an associate degree, and all teachers need to have additional certifications to actually teach. Early childhood education does not pay well, but finding a school that has caring teachers is better then paying about 600 dollars a month for a school that really is just taking your money.

[OhioFiler]

Get rid of the Chrysler and buy a new car with a higher monthly payment if you haven't filed yet.

[8forme]

A very good thread though.




Alorth, for $600 a month, you mean you could not teach her the alphabet, what numbers mean, and get her onto the road to reading before kindergarten? If you put that child into "Public (government) Schools" she will not get what you can give her. Check out the idiots attempting riots that they don't even know why they are there (except to party).

If you are not working a career, make her education a "Home School" starting now with reading, math, and later History and keyboarding for sure. Not "thumb-boarding" as in text but real typewriting. This will lift a burden of $7200 dollars a year and you would enjoy this. Hit the Internet for home school syllabus. There are many out there. 'Hub

We are in a 13 and we have been able to save more money since entering it than ever before. We did not use credit for over a year before finally deciding to file. The 13 is NOT a prison sentence. We have 8 kids and they don't want for anything.

As for the school, we homeschool our kids and it is THE best thing for my kids, IMO. We did Montessori for our oldest 2 and they still didn't learn what they do with us. I would seriously consider it if you can. You can be in charge of her education and you can be there for her every step of the way. It is actually quite frightening what goes on in public and even private schools nowadays, there is no way I want my kids exposed to that.

[AngelinaCatHub]

You're right. I should probably migrate over to the 13 Board now that my 7 hopes have pretty much been squished. Just been trying to answer the posts or questions here in the thread I began.

A very good thread though.

I'm not either. It could be a point of contention. She only spends 3 hours/day 5 days/wk there, but I feel she is learning so much more than I could give to her on my own. I do take care of her myself the rest of the time. Montessori schools are known to be high cost...and I can hear the UST or Judge saying we 'just can't afford it' now that we're in BK. maybe they're right, but I do feel its in the best interest of my daughter, and intend to fight for it.

Alorth, for $600 a month, you mean you could not teach her the alphabet, what numbers mean, and get her onto the road to reading before kindergarten? If you put that child into "Public (government) Schools" she will not get what you can give her. Check out the idiots attempting riots that they don't even know why they are there (except to party).

If you are not working a career, make her education a "Home School" starting now with reading, math, and later History and keyboarding for sure. Not "thumb-boarding" as in text but real typewriting. This will lift a burden of $7200 dollars a year and you would enjoy this. Hit the Internet for home school syllabus. There are many out there. 'Hub

[alorth]

I think everyone is pretty much in same situation, You will not be in prison by yourself. I will be filing soon and I wish I could get a 7 so I could walk away. Stay away from the chap 7 forum its depressing. The good news you will be out of debt in 5 years. At this point anything is better than being harassed 24 hr a day. Unfortuanetly many proffessionals are in the same boat we get nailed on taxes and receive nothing in return. I am right there with you. Just hoping I have enough to pay my reg bills and food.

You're right. I should probably migrate over to the 13 Board now that my 7 hopes have pretty much been squished. Just been trying to answer the posts or questions here in the thread I began.

[karm43]

I think everyone is pretty much in same situation, You will not be in prison by yourself. I will be filing soon and I wish I could get a 7 so I could walk away. Stay away from the chap 7 forum its depressing. The good news you will be out of debt in 5 years. At this point anything is better than being harassed 24 hr a day. Unfortuanetly many proffessionals are in the same boat we get nailed on taxes and receive nothing in return. I am right there with you. Just hoping I have enough to pay my reg bills and food.

[alorth]

Are you working Alorth? I ask because you said you mostly watch your daughter, but she goes to preschool. I'm not sure that a nearly $600/mo preschool payment is going to fly with a ch.13 trustee if you're not working. Just a head's up. ;)

I'm not either. It could be a point of contention. She only spends 3 hours/day 5 days/wk there, but I feel she is learning so much more than I could give to her on my own. I do take care of her myself the rest of the time. Montessori schools are known to be high cost...and I can hear the UST or Judge saying we 'just can't afford it' now that we're in BK. maybe they're right, but I do feel its in the best interest of my daughter, and intend to fight for it.

[Flamingo]

I may not have explained my self correctly the last few posts...sorry for any misunderstanding.

But we ARE now in CH 13 territory.

There was a mathematical error on the Means Test which put us slightly OVER and into "Abuse" territory, where as before we found the error, we were thinking that we were going to be able to squeak by into a 7....barely.

I'm still not sure what a 13 re-payment plan is going to look like, as I just don't see where the Disposable Income is in reality.

AND I'm pretty sure the plan will fail unless its done with enough room to live OK the next 5 years.

That's what I think is most upsetting about having to do a 13 instead of a 7. I relate it to being convicted of a Felony as opposed to a Misdemeanor. You spend a whole heckuva lot more time in "BK Jail" with your entire financial life handed over to some TT.....5 years!! I could conceivably die before its over. Its a long time.

The reason most Chapter 13s fail is because the debtors cannot change their former lifestyle or refuse to do so. After having lost a high yearly income with the loss of my husband's job in 2/01 and not being able to recover to reach a similar income and having to learn to adjust to a completely different lifestyle, I know how hard it is to do. However, a Chapter 13 will teach you the budgeting skills you will need to learn to get through the remainder of your life and not get into similar situations in the future of living above your means in case something bad happens (job loss, medical emergency, etc.). It's hard to learn to cut back and budget and not be able to go out and do things one did previously - our vacations became back yard vacations and we learned to barter to get house repairs done or car repairs. We saved change out of our pockets each day to be able to purchase Christmas gifts, birthday presents, etc. We never had to do that previously and it was an eye opening, big learning experience that now keeps us, 10 years later, from ever getting in that position again. We got through the Plan years and came out fine - you can too...and will learn so much about yourself and your finances in the process...

[AngelinaCatHub]

alorth as to post 11: I do understand. Been there and done that but the bank did not take us down. I had an enemy who bled me financially. Would have lost it all and he tried to break our gift of our heritage that we gave to the State for a Park. They paid us a tenth (they cannot take a gift) of it's value we put into a CRUT so that was safe in suit. This was before the jerk hit me. Long and booring story.

I don't judge you. Things could go worse and probably will. You can convert to a 7 if and when.

When we built our house, Mrs. and I only wanted a cottage. We have/had 266 acres, 22 on the river. We built a 600 sq ft cottage. It is all we needed. We have a little house but a very nice yard. Wooded and paid for. We pay no taxes on our Park that was built free and we have life rights others do not have and a life estate on our 22 acres.

None the less, we lived high and could drop a hundred without missing it. No more. We now cut coupons and the like. We gained much more than we lost in values and what wealth really is. Wealth is not money or the lack of it. It is peace, health, and contentment. It is work to maintain those things though. You choose daily your day and it's success. Happiness is a state of mind. Choose to be. 'Hub

[momofthree]

Are you working Alorth? I ask because you said you mostly watch your daughter, but she goes to preschool. I'm not sure that a nearly $600/mo preschool payment is going to fly with a ch.13 trustee if you're not working. Just a head's up. ;)

[alorth]

We are seriously TRYING to get to that simpler life by wiping the slate clean. That's why were in BK. And we have already begun the simplification in so many areas. If you could see the sofa I'm sitting on, with tears in the fabric, you would have trouble telling me I live an "expensive lifestyle".

I would ask you to keep in mind that we accept responsibility for most of our situation. But I refuse to take it for all of it. The same Banks that were all too happy to extend us credit well in excess of $200k a couple years ago, decided to all raise their interest rates, minimum payments, and eliminate any available credit at once. Our jobs didn't change. Our income didn't change. We had always been on time with payments. But THEY changed our situation for us. Yes, we were overextended, but they gave us the rope and let us hang ourselves with it, before dropping the trap door themselves.

I know we are blessed because my wife continues to have a great job and income, more than so many here. BUT we are drowning in debt. We over extended when things were good, thinking we'd always have access to credit, thinking we could always sell our home and get out from under, thinking we'd both be working well into our 60's or later, as we are only in our 40's now! Then all of sudden all of our options were taken away.

I mean, a $300,000 house is NOT crazy! We live in 2200 sq. ft. on an acre. Not a McMansion. There is an entire neighborhood of $500k plus homes, and million dollar lakefront homes, all over the place near here. We THOUGHT at the time of purchase that we were being responsible with this house, instead of spending more, which was entirely possible. My wife is a Doctor, and I suppose we felt that we had 'made it', and 'deserved' a bigger home, and nice cars (which we used to drive, but that was long ago, part of our 'simplification'). We used to take vacations, had a timeshare, had a boat, etc. etc. We have sold it all. A long time ago now.

We haven't touched a credit card in over a year.

I would live in a smaller house now. I really don't care, give me a 60 yr. old 1400 sq. ft. 3 bedroom ranch. But we are underwater here in the house we have. The rental market for anything decent is fairly slim. And of course, renting, instead of buying, will also affect our deductions at tax time.

We can survive fine the way things are now if we could just get a 7, and discharge all of the unsecured debt that was accrued. But apparently, THE MAN is not going to let that be an option for us.

So its a 5 year SENTENCE in Ch. 13 that awaits us. When you don't have financial control of your life....when you surrender it to another, then you truly are NOT free. May as well be a prison....maybe a Velvet Prison, but a prison just the same in the restrictions that you face.

So this may sound like "woe is me, or us".

Fine.

I am frustrated beyond belief to find ourselves in this situation. We saw it coming, we tried so many different things to head it off. We sold off everything. We refi'd to pay off bills. We took 401k loans to pay off bills. We got financial counseling that couldn't help us. We stopped the spending. NOTHING got us to where we needed to be, and then other circumstances in regards to my health and ability to earn a good income have hit us as well since then.

I wish in a way we could just get up in front of the UST and Judge and tell our whole story. Just get it off our chests, instead of following all of this 'procedure'. Then let them make their decision based on the whole picture.

[AngelinaCatHub]

I don't wish you to misunderstand my post. I wish you well. You are new but yet you have read many, many worse situations. I posit that you might consider how fortunate that you are.

I/we in 2000 were worth 10 mil in land and money. As per our age and no progeny (together) we passed our land to the State for a Park (with life estate). This was fortunate in that an enemy serially sued without going to trial until we were broke. It was the BEST DAMNED THING TO HAPPEN TO US. Why? We learned different values. After a quarter mil in lawyers fees we fell through BK and did EVERYTHING wrong. We were blessed as our ignorance showed and we paid all penalties.

Here is what I see in this post and understand, it is only an attempt to make you see the glass is half full for you, not half empty.

Medical expenses are high. We blow right through the $2600 cap on our Health Spending Account in 7-8 months....the rest is out of pocket. You are fortunate to be able to save against an HSA. I assume you have medical insurance though. Preschool/Daycare costs for our 4 yr. old are around $570/month....AND I am watching her most of the time myself....but she does have pre-school 5 days/week at Montessori. So the out of pocket health costs plus the child's school/care costs are 2 big hits we take. That is a heavy hit. I was fortunate to have a stay at home wife (former) to raise my two children. Then add the Mortgage of $2410. IMO you are needing a smaller house. Payroll taxes eat over $2200/month. Car payments are 210 and 270 for an '09 Hyundai and an '05 Chrysler. There is 401k loan payback of around $400. You were over extended when you had to hit your retirement. Did you realize to cut back at that time? Car insurance has gone up thanks to bad credit. It all adds up, folks. Grocery and gas expenditures have increased simply as a by-product of the economy. AND it will get much worse in the near future. Cut back all you can now. People...I still wear some clothes that are 10-15 years old! We still watch old tube-style TVs in our home, except for one 5 yr. old flat screen. We pick them up on garbage day and donate perfectly working tube TVs to poorer folks. No boat, no 3rd car, no vacations, no motorcycle, no jewelry. We keep getting odds and ends repairs on the cars, or the house. Normal repairs is called maintenance and everyone has this. I don't even have a cheap swingset for my kid in the backyard...something I have desperately wanted to get for her. I'm not talking one of those big Wooden $2500 Play structures, either. Just a cheap, plain swing set. Its just life....eating us a small bite at a time. You can build such a thing yourself out of scrap lumber or junk. I did this years ago. Just spend time with your little girl, she will not miss a swing set, but she will remember your attention. Also the comment about life. Life is a trip. Enjoy the ride. You pick your day every day. Choose to be pleased with a good day. If you choose to be depressed, you won't be disappointed when you are.

(edit to say: This doesn't take into account utility costs, either, which have also been going up) Everything is going up but wages. We now are on SS and what we can do with a bit of consulting. We live better with less. You will do the same, just accept this. You are better off than most here.

(edit again to say our monthly obligations on the Means Test total close to $9200/month.....Our Means test initially showed income of $9360....that was an error and it is actually at about $9950....that is all the difference it took to go from the possibility of a 7 into a 13) My gosh, what you make in two months is now my gross for the year. If I did not have a paid house, I'd be under a bridge. Be thankful you can do a 13. You have a budget problem and could solve your problem in 13. Do the time and get it behind you.

My friend, I remind you of my above disclaimer, but you are blessed far above most here. I wish you well and keep us informed. My personal advise is live a simpler (less expensive) lifestyle. 'Hub

[alorth]

I understand that, but keep in mind, it doesn't take much for the US trustee to object to certain expenses to get you back into chapter 13 territory.

All I am saying, is that you need a mind set that you are "probably" a 13, but if you can get a 7 great.

I may not have explained my self correctly the last few posts...sorry for any misunderstanding.

But we ARE now in CH 13 territory.

There was a mathematical error on the Means Test which put us slightly OVER and into "Abuse" territory, where as before we found the error, we were thinking that we were going to be able to squeak by into a 7....barely.

I'm still not sure what a 13 re-payment plan is going to look like, as I just don't see where the Disposable Income is in reality.

AND I'm pretty sure the plan will fail unless its done with enough room to live OK the next 5 years.

That's what I think is most upsetting about having to do a 13 instead of a 7. I relate it to being convicted of a Felony as opposed to a Misdemeanor. You spend a whole heckuva lot more time in "BK Jail" with your entire financial life handed over to some TT.....5 years!! I could conceivably die before its over. Its a long time.

[HHM]

I understand that, but keep in mind, it doesn't take much for the US trustee to object to certain expenses to get you back into chapter 13 territory.

All I am saying, is that you need a mind set that you are "probably" a 13, but if you can get a 7 great.