Question about estimating personal property

[TomTea31]

I'm just about done estimating my personal property and then will post the entire thing to see how I did before placing it on the final matrix. First though I have a few q's about certain property. I'm sorry this is so long. I'm just struggling with this part. It's hard estimating what things are worth!

I own an expensive sewing/embroidery machine Pfaff 2140. I bought it for $800 1.5 years ago. If you look on eBay or Craigslist these sell for $900 to $1900 and sometimes even more. The prices are all over the place. Realistically speaking I did get a bargain on this one but I did only pay $800. It is an older model though. The newest is a 2170 in this series. It's 10 years old, and out of date according to Pfaff. Do I list it on the matrix as $800, for less or more?

2nd Pfaff sewing/embroidery machine is a 7570. It's the very first embroidery machine ever made by pfaff. It is a classic. They sell for around $1200 on ebay and $900 on craigslist. I paid $400. Thought I got a good deal but then found out that the embroidery module doesn't work. Battery light just came on recently indicating it's about to lose the battery it has. Batteries for these are non existent. without the embroidery module working I'd say the price on this drastically drops. How do I estimate what it's worth?

Bought a luxury memory foam mattress & box by Serta in March for $600. It's already producing a sink hole in the middle. We called Serta and they said they would have someone come out and inspect it but if they found stains or that it wasn't on the proper frame warranty would be void. Stupid us did not use a mattress cover and the kids of course just had to eat on our bed. So at this point I don't think we should waste the $35 inspection fee. How do we estimate this bed? I put $300 but is that too low or not low enough?

LCD Plasma TV was purchased in March as well for $600+, don't rem exact price. It's in perfect condition. How do I list it?

[ValleYum]

What would you price these items for at a yard sale? What would someone pay for a embroidery machine that you can't use to embroider or easily find replacement parts for? I think you are too high - $500 sounds more likely for the first and even less for the second. The Federal exemptions on household goods lets each item be valued to $550 for a total of no more than $11,525 (doubled if you are filing jointly - but I don't seem to think you are, IIRC) without using any of your wild card amounts.

Even in perfect condition, a "used" plasma TV would be worth 30-50% less (and maybe even more) than what you paid for it because all electronics lose value quickly because of the rapidly evolving technology. I did a quick check of our local craigslist and found these:

Dec 10 - 50 inch plasma flatscreen - $420 (T**d) electronics

Dec 10 - Philips 30" Widescreen HDTV - $100 (Wa****l) electronics

Dec 10 - 42" Flatscreen Plasma TV - $200 (O*** C**y) electronics

Due to the bedbug outbreaks becoming more widespread ( ::shudder:: ) most places don't even take donations of upholstered furniture or bedding - I know for sure that the Arc of CC doesn't. A 'kid-friendly', Serta mattress with a sag in the center wouldn't be worth much to me or IMO a bankruptcy trustee. I think $300 is generous.

The 2 Chapter 7 trustees here in partnership have this listed on their worksheet that they give to clients so they can prepare their petition (and I C&P'd - so it is verbatim) - this is the value determination consensus of two-thirds of the trustees here:

HOW TO DETERMINE THE REPLACEMENT VALUE OF YOUR PERSONAL PROPERTY:
You will need to know the replacement value of any personal property that you own when your bankruptcy case is filed, even if the property is mortgaged, pledged, or otherwise subject to a lien. The replacement value of property is the price that a retail merchant would charge for property of that kind, considering the age and condition of the property at the time the bankruptcy case is filed. You can find the replacement value for items on Craigslist, eBay or at a thrift store, such as Goodwill and the Salvation Army. The value of personal property that is subject to a valid lien or mortgage is the replacement value of the property as of the date the bankruptcy case was filed without deducting anything for the cost of selling or marketing the property.

The trustee with the initials RG is the one not in these guys' practice, FYI. Our trustee was DT and was very nice yet businesslike.

More than anything, value your items so that you can sleep at night after you file your BK!

Hopes this helps you hearing this from my 'local' perspective! Good luck!

ETA: Don't forget about community property laws and belongings - we didn't have to worry about them because we filed a joint BK. Did you do any free consults even though you are filing Pro Se? Community property issues would be top on my list to ask at one of those. I would just make sure not to use any of the trustees for a free consult as that might could create an issue for your 341 .

[TomTea31]

ValleYum your post was extremely helpful. I'm still not sure about the sewing machines though. Those I want to save no matter what and I'm worried if I value them too low the Trustee will fight for them.

And now I have a few more questions.

Do we list food items?
I thought comm property state meant we share our property equally?

I have the nola book so I'll look in there again, but I didn't see anything that talked about that

Oh and about the plasma. I did look on Craigslist but I did not find a Samsung 720p 51" Plasma listed, so I was lost. Do I pick something similar or what?

[mountanddo]

I would say the second one is really not worth anything seeing as the batteries are non-existent. As for the mattress. Well would that even sell at a garage sale?

[jst4f]

Yard sale prices are the best way to go. A sewing/embroidery that doesn't work and you can't get parts is worth nothing, scrap metal. Sorry if it a treasured article, but BK is business and the law. Be careful on eBay et al as to what is asked for versus what it sold for. We saw a listing for a 1986 popup tent trailer like ours that we had to value. They wanted $2000 but they never got it. We contacted a local RV store and it was too old for them to buy, no market. They estimated $150 so we put down $250. As for the bed, would you buy that bed at a yard sale in the condition you describe? I don't think I would. I would put the value at salvage rate. If you are concerned that the trustee will not believe you, have pictures and a description of the condition as a basis. A quick way to get a price on the TV is to go to a local TV repair shop and ask them what it is worth. BTW is it an LCD TV or a plasma? Plasma are on the way out and should be worth much less than an LCD. New 60in LCD at Best Buy was $899 just last week.

The key is to price your property for a quick sale or even auction sale where the audience is the general public.

[ValleYum]

Oh, TomTea - try not to overthink it - the Trustees want Lamborghinis and JetSkis and ski boats not 15 year old sewing machines that you only have a half interest in.

To be very safe, I would just list the sewing machines very detailed something like: as a 199? Pfaff Model xyz with non working embroidery module/bad battery - $300 (you paid $400 - it had to have depreciated, right?). Just like my few collectible knick-knacks, the market for non-necessities seems to have dried up or people are selling them for a song. Plus in a community property state, he'd have to pay your hubby half of what he sold them for, right? That makes them even less appealing to the trustee, IMO.

On your TV - just put Samsung 51" plasma - used - and value it to something close - IMO, it doesn't have to be exact brand match - on craigslist or eBay or the Thrifty Nickel. Again, the minute you opened the box - the value plummeted and the trustees know this.

Food - I listed it as Pantry/Foodstuffs and the dollar amount.

Remember to be thorough but you can group rooms or items - EX: Dishes, pots, pans, utensils & small kitchen appliances - $290.

I am not super sure that listing property in a community property state is that different - I just always see folks posting on here and fretting about it - so I thought I'd mention it LOL! Didn't mean to make you worry more!

Shout out in PMs if you need to!

[mountanddo]

I never put the brand or description on my items. It just asked me to list what I thought my TV was worth. As for the sewing machine, I would just put sewing machine. Without the embroidery attachment that is really all it is right?

[JackBondLove]

I did some research online for various items I had that were not exempt - mainly pinball machines, neon signs, and a few interesting collectibles. Even though I had about $20K invested in all this, I put down a total of about $2.5K for them (all of which I happily paid the trustee after the discharge with funds from my Roth IRA.) For the pinball machines, I actually found a website that detailed a BK liquidation sale in one was sold for $50, so I just used that as my template! I would see neon signs for $25 at yard sales, so I put that down as well. Looking back, I probably could have squeezed down to about $2K, but there comes a point at which too much of discount could cause trouble with the trustee if he were to do an inspection - I mean it would have been foolish to risk my $140K discharge for an extra $500!

[TomTea31]

Ok so for example, the pfaff 2140 is showing under completed items on ebay for $750 to $1900. So I can use the $750, correct? But then my particular machine is missing a few pieces so I'd think I could drop it lower?

The pfaff 7570 I'll just list as maybe $200. It sells on ebay and craigslist for around $1200 but that's with the thing complete and with a good battery. I could probably safely say that the computer component is about to crash since the embroidery module no longer works. then the battery light coming on.

and I am precisely worried about what JackBondLove is saying. I don't want to risk trying to cheat how much my items are worth and then have the trustee come down hard on me. I need to keep what I have as I'm STILL unemployed a year after graduation and absolutely cannot afford to lose my stuff since I wouldn't be able to replace it.

[ValleYum]

I would definitely drop the Pfaff 2140 down from $750 if it is missing parts. Is there a Pfaff dealer in our area? Could you call them and ask them what used machines are going for WITH the issues/problems your machines have?

The completed listing with the Pfaff selling for $775 that I see on eBay was for a machine with TONS of extra feet and hoops (which you can list separately in your BK as sewing machine accessories!!) It also was UPGRADED to a 2170 model and had manufacturer service just prior to the auction. I, personally, would list yours for $500 or less. Link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pfaff-2144-2...item4cfc9e970f

Even if you decide to list it valued at $750 - you could stack $200 of your WildCard on top of the $550 Personal Property amount in the Federal Exemptions IF you needed to. You will get to keep it if you can exempt it!!

BUT since we are a community property state do you list it for $750 or for $375 because in community property jurisdictions, spouses equally own all community property (fifty percent owned by the husband and fifty percent owned by the wife)? The fact that we live in a community property state may solve all your worries right there.

Any expert opinions for Tom out there???

[TomTea31]

I doubt the Trustee's going to come after my stuff anyway. I owe way more than what I have, and most of my debt is big chunks of medical bills. I can't see the Trustee selling a bunch or books for 10 a piece and trying to split that with a debt I owe $30k or more on. Same with the sewing machines. My issue really is just how to list it so everything goes smoothly.

Here's what I got so far. I'm sure I'm over pricing.

Kitchen
Kitchen Aid, $100
Tassimo Espresso, $50
Misc pots/pans $1
Misc Kitchen items $20
Kitchen Table, $75 (this may be worth more or less)

Living room
Couch & Loveseat, $1 (horribly tore up. We have a parrot and two kids)
Plasma 51" $200 (720p, samsung)
PlayStation 3 & misc games, $100
Wii & misc games, $50 (kid's wii, and in horrible condition. Games all scratched to heck)
Misc rugs $1 (they've been peed on by the cat
Misc DVd's, $10 (kid's ruined them)
Ds Lite & misc games, $60 (old games)
Misc art work, $1 (most bought at goodwill, rest is my creation)
Washer/Dryer, $50 (old and breaking)
Treadmill, $150 (older but in great condition)
Misc weights, $50

Sewing/Craft
Pfaff 2140, $600 (has been upgraded to 2170, but is the 1st model and missing a few stock items)
Pfaff 7570, $200 (embroidery unit does not work, battery light just came on and you can't find them. machine isn't functional without the battery. Missing some stock items)
Singer Serger, $50
misc fabrics/textiles, $75
machine embroidery thread & supplies, $50 (all thread has been used a lot)
misc embroidery cards, $75 (7570, 2140)
misc sewing supplies, $25 (measuring tapes, pins, scissors, ect)
misc sewing patterns, $25 (most cut)
Misc art supplies, $25 (oils, watercolor, canvas, brushes: all well used, and my daughters)

Bathroom
Small bathroom stock pile, $50 (you know TLC's extreme couponing? Well yeah I am one of them those crazy people)
bathroom appliances, $50 (irons, makeup, all well used)
misc bathroom, $10

Bedrooms
Queen Mattress & Box, $100 ( bought in march and already producing a sink hold in the middle. Kids spilled liquid on the mattress)
Dressers, $20
full/box, $1 (old and well used)
Twin mattress, $20 (son's bed, stained)
Twin pine bed, $1 (son's bed, bad condition)
misc bedding, $50

Clothing & Shoes, $200 (all 4 of us)

Cell phones
(2) HTC EVO's 4 G, $150 (1 was dropped in a river)
(1) Samsung Seek, $1 (cracked screen, works)

computer, $20 (old, running on xp, slow)
netbook, $20 (good for parts, bad hard drive)
misc office supplies, $15 (paper, pens, old printer, ect)

Food
Misc food, $150 (resell value right?)

Jewelery
Wedding Ring, diamond/gold, $100 (wife)
Wedding ring, yellow gold, 14k, $25 (husbands)
Misc costume jewelry, $50 (most is my daughters. we don't wear a lot of jewelry)

Books, $100
Misc Magazines, $25
Misc family photos, $1

misc fishing gear, $75 (all well used)

Pets
Cat, $1
Parrot, $1 (bites strangers, loud, is a plucker, has separation anxiety, bonded to my daughter)
parrot cage & misc supplies, $50

vehicles
93 Honda Accord, reconstructed title, 300k mileage, $900 (we bought for $1300 a few months ago, and then it broke down. Fixed it but it needs more repairs).

2003 Tiburon, 120k mileage, some body damage, interior is poor (not sure what to list it for) craigslist shows these going for 6k but mine is definitely not worth that. It's been through 2 accidents. Bought it 2nd hand. no air bag.

[keepsmiling]

Does your district require you to list so much?
We were told to keep it much simpler, just aggregated groups with something to the effect of "nothing valued at over $550"

[jst4f]

When we did filled out our petition we aggregated like keep smiling said and we used only generic descriptions, e.g refrigerator not kitchen aid. The list you have is similar to what we took to the lawyer and he helped us put it in a correct form.

[mountanddo]

It seems like you are listing every little thing. I never even listed anything in the bathroom or kitchen. I just listed misc household items, computer, couch, chair, bed, clothes, tv and car. That was it and I put a number down for each. There is no trustee that is going to come to your house and raid your closet or your bathroom to see what you might have. Of course if you wrote a check to Antique Auctions for 15k I might write that down! I think you are way over thinking this.

[TomTea31]

I thought we had to list everything so that's what I did. I read somewhere on here that we are supposed to list anything over a $50 value separately. Should I group things together? I kind of did but I guess not well enough.

What about something like this, or should it be simplified even more?
Kitchen,
Misc Furniture,
Misc Electronics,
Exercise Equipment
Misc Decor
Pantry & Food items
Jewelry
Clothing & Accessories
Misc Sewing/Craft
Misc Bedroom Furniture
Misc Office Equipment
Cars