unexempt items revisted. Is certain property exclusively the husband or wifes?

[shoopy]

I've mentioned before that a have a small accumulation of firearms. The value of these won't be exempted, so I will either have to dispose of them at a fair price and use the proceeds to pay valid expenses.

All along, I have thought of them as being "mine", then it occurred to me that this is probably a sexist attitude as well as possibly being erroneous, and that my wife has as much claim to them as I do.

So, if the total value of the firearms is $2,000, would I have a $1,000 non exempt interest in them, and my wife have a right to $1,000 of their value, or would the trustee just say that they are all mine, and I have $2,000 in non exempt property?

[SMinGA2]

Depends on the item & where you live... If you're a community property state and you owned them before marriage, they're yours. If you acquired them after marriage they're owned jointly. If you're not a community property state, then you probably get to choose for most things.

Some items may need to be registered though. If these items are registered, and you're not in a community property state, you would likely need to go by the registration status. (Assuming firearms must always be registered, though I don't know for sure.)

[HHM]

If the argument you want to make is that the guns are not yours, but your spouses, to try to keep them out of BK, that will not likely work unless you can establish some facts.

1. Who bought the guns, and when?
2. When was the last time your spouse shot any of the guns?
3. If some or all the guns were handguns, who filled out the application?

Do you see where this is going...you wont be able to just "say" these guns are my spouses.

Unfortunately, when it comes to assets, the BK sort of gets to have it "both ways." Unless the item is something that can be specifically titled (e.g. car, house etc), At a minimum, the presumption is that assets are joint assets (even in non-community property estates) if the assets were acquired during marriage. So the trustee still gets to take them. If you can "prove" your spouse has some sort of independent, equitable ownership interest in the items, all that means is the trustee will have to pay your wife here share. But it doesn't mean you get to keep them.

So either way, if there is no exemption you can use, these guns are toast regardless of who owns them, unless you can answer exclusively "spouse" to the questions above.

[shoopy]

...So the trustee still gets to take them. If you can "prove" your spouse has some sort of independent, equitable ownership interest in the items, all that means is the trustee will have to pay your wife here share. But it doesn't mean you get to keep them.

So either way, if there is no exemption you can use, these guns are toast regardless of who owns them, unless you can answer exclusively "spouse" to the questions above.

It is not my intention at all to claim that they are exclusively my wife's, but they were acquired during marriage, and there are several of them that she shoots (not so much, now-a-days, for either of us).

If I thought that the trustee would allow her to claim half the value, I would be inclined to buy the other half back from the court, if offered the option, otherwise there is no point to keeping them at all.

Also, I can't get a really straight answer out of my attorney about how to value them, if I don't sell them. His answer is "they are worth what you can sell them for". Obviously. I have the Blue Book of Gun Values, which is considered to be the pricing bible by gun people, but the prices given are retail. You would be lucky to get half of the value from a gun or pawn shop.

Is there any reason to believe that the court would not offer to sell them back to me, rather than take possession of them and sell them on their own?

[SMinGA2]

Could you take them to a gun or pawn shop, and get a written offer?

For items with low liquidity I imagine the trustee would prefer to make a deal with you.

[HHM]

Unfortunately, guns really don't depreciate that much.

You have the option to buy the guns back from the BK, the trustee's usually prefer that because it is easier and they don't incur costs of selling. However, they are NOT required to sell them back to you.

So you can do
1. Sell all the guns now, and use the cash for your benefit prior to filing BK.
2. File BK, argue that wife has a 1/2 interest in the guns, and negotiate with trustee to buy guns back.
However, under option 2, you could lose on the 1/2 interest argument, and the trustee need not sell the guns back to you. Also, do you have the money to buy them anyway from non-BK assets?

[rjsdsu]

try calguns.net, private firearms sales and do a search for your gun. I suspect you will find it, and buyers pay asking price for guns--they are in demand right now. That should give you a general idea of their value.

[LadyInTheRed]

Also, I can't get a really straight answer out of my attorney about how to value them, if I don't sell them. His answer is "they are worth what you can sell them for".

That is the straight answer. You estimate what you think you can sell them for or get a professional appaiser to estimate what they would sell for. But, both your estimated value and the appraiser's estimated value could be wrong. The only way to know for sure what any item is worth is to put it on the open market and see what kind of offers you get. Whatever value you put on your petition will be the value for purposes of your BK unless the trustee objects. Then you can negotiate regarding the value, take it to the judge, or let the trustee sell the guns if he wants them and find out the value that way.