Scammers new Porsche, possibly the last how to

[LostOne0069]

I will not applaud nor commend nor encourage this use of a system that was to help people start fresh and become productive members of society.

So you're saying that they should let the court take more from them than they have to? They should voluntarily lower their standard of living "just because"?

Would YOU give up more than you HAD to if you were in their situation?

I doubt it.

[Minnymouth]

Bankruptcy shows no mercy to anyone......

Some of just better bankruptcy planners than others and have the financial means and resources to do so......

Many "wealthy" end up in bankruptcy or re-organization chapters of bankruptcy to salvage what they do have......

Average Joe does well to hire an attorney (and that takes every dime they can scrape together).......

I wish I had been smarter when doing my bankruptcty, wished I had researched it a lot better..... maybe it wouldn't have turned out like it did.....

But hindsight is 20/20 and now I pick up the pieces and go on from here......

What "little bit" I do own in life is just as important to me and the "expensive stuff" that a wealthy person my take a chance on loosing in bankrutpcy......

All of us our "lifestyles" have to change after bankruptcy if we are going to survive it.... rich or poor or inbetween........

NOBODY BEATS THE SYSTEM, some just "know" things that others don't and work it to their advantage..... and that's a good thing if your filing bankruptcy.....

[scammer]

Some people have a gift of finance, others maybe medicine, others law, they are all smart, but have chosen to focus their cognitive horsepower and resources into different areas...I know some very intelligent physicians that do not fully understand the power of compound interest or the time value of money...they aren't stupid by any means, just not really interested in finance or money matters and have no acuem in that particular domain.

There is also a correlation (some researchers would suggest it is also causal) between intelligence and financial fitness (see the book, The Bell Curve). Of course these are generalities and there are exceptions..

Finally, proper planning prevents piss-poor performance, so anyone that does not take full advantage of the bankruptcy laws is a fool.........In fact, after rooting around on this forum for the last few months I would suggest that most Pro se filers have a fool for an attorney...........JMHO

This is a magnificant post, very very sharp observations. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I understand the ability to manage a problem and surround myself with the best of resources. Makes an average guy like me look quite sharp. My objective here is not to understand every facet of the process, but to understand concepts that only I can interpet and use for my own situation. All the little rules and the formal process to accomplish my objective is for the attorney. I understand what my strengths and my weaknesses are. Practicing law is not a strength I possess, therefore my reasons for being on this board are not to learn how to walk through the process, but rather a tactical one.

The following from nodoubt I would be honored if he let me post it as a quote in my signature area.

"proper planning prevents piss-poor performance, so anyone that does not take full advantage of the bankruptcy laws is a fool.........In fact, after rooting around on this forum for the last few months I would suggest that most Pro se filers have a fool for an attorney"

that is exactly my feelings.


another awesome thought from nodoubt

"Some people have a gift of finance, others maybe medicine, others law, they are all smart, but have chosen to focus their cognitive horsepower and resources into different areas...I know some very intelligent physicians that do not fully understand the power of compound interest or the time value of money...they aren't stupid by any means, just not really interested in finance or money matters and have no acuem in that particular domain"

Awesome, and so right on.

[Minnymouth]

Some of us had attorneys representing us that were "fools" also.......... shame they don't do their job as well as they like to get paid............

[djk]

what did it cost and what did one achieve? if it cost nothing except the court costs and one achieved ones goal, then filing Pro Se is valid and in the process
saved alot of money. scammer, my guess is your attorney would agree that the real fool is one who spends to accomplish what could cost nothing (other than costs), it is almost as if your attorney has scammed you. your mileage may vary, box tops have no monetary value. How many posts have you seen were a Pro Se filer stated they wished they had legal advice? How many posts have you seen were a poster was unhappy with the attorney? Myself, I've never seen a post from a Pro Se wishing they had sought an attorney, OTOH, I see posts every day concerning problems with an attorney matter. I'd say Pro Se filers win hands down, and attorneys are a sorry bunch, but then that is my opinion.

[Minnymouth]

Pro se filers can be very proud that they accomplised thier goals with no problems...... (if problems had occured, then they start searching for answers and often end up having to find an attorney)....

And yes, many of the attorneys LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED, for what they are paid for their services.......

[scammer]

what did it cost and what did one achieve? if it cost nothing except the court costs and one achieved ones goal, then filing Pro Se is valid and in the process
saved alot of money. scammer, my guess is your attorney would agree that the real fool is one who spends to accomplish what could cost nothing (other than costs), it is almost as if your attorney has scammed you. your mileage may vary, box tops have no monetary value. How many posts have you seen were a Pro Se filer stated they wished they had legal advice? How many posts have you seen were a poster was unhappy with the attorney? Myself, I've never seen a post from a Pro Se wishing they had sought an attorney, OTOH, I see posts every day concerning problems with an attorney matter. I'd say Pro Se filers win hands down, and attorneys are a sorry bunch, but then that is my opinion.

I think I understand what you are saying. If it is straightforward case, file pro-Se if the goal can be accomplished for less costs. The one thing you didn't mention is most individuals have full time work, what is there time worth educating themselves and can they effectively argue a case against a trustee. Also I have heard the new process is much more complex than the old and leaves little room for error. IMO I have read more screw ups than successes, like that guy who told the trustee he gave the money to his sister and they want the money back from her. I have a business to run, It is difficult for myself to effectively know all the rules and run a brokerage firm at the same time. My attorney has had to cite numerous rulings in law journals to back the trustee off this and that. An individual is just not going to have those resources handy. My whole case might run, $6,000-$8,000 and I have more than earned that back from my competent attorney's advice.

[scammer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by catwhisperer
I will not applaud nor commend nor encourage this use of a system that was to help people start fresh and become productive members of society.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostone
So you're saying that they should let the court take more from them than they have to? They should voluntarily lower their standard of living "just because"?

Would YOU give up more than you HAD to if you were in their situation?

I doubt it.







I agree, so if a family member was accused of a crime, lets say murder, you wouldn't utilize and interpet the laws of our country to defend him?

[scammer]

Some of us had attorneys representing us that were "fools" also.......... shame they don't do their job as well as they like to get paid............

The process of interviewing attorneys rests completely on the individual that hired them. Crucial not to pick the "fool".

Minny, not faulting you, but "fools" are worse than pro-se.
Although what happened to you is called a terrible blindsite.

[anonymuse]

The process of interviewing attorneys rests completely on the individual that hired them. Crucial not to pick the "fool".

Minny, not faulting you, but "fools" are worse than pro-se.
Although what happened to you is called a terrible blindsite.

I've asked lawyer for other customers for references and they thought I was nuts.

I'm curious scammer, we know your wise, but how old are you?

[scammer]

I've asked lawyer for other customers for references and they thought I was nuts.

I'm curious scammer, we know your wise, but how old are you?

No, no, no, you don't ask them for other clients names, they probably can't. I bet the Bar Association prohibits it. You ask other friends of yours who is good, also get on Pacer and see who is doing alot of cases.

43

[Minnymouth]

scammer,

The attorney I used came highly recommended, several others I know had used him..... another attorney even recommended him.... He had 25 years experience.........mostly in bankruptcy court......

Well, he was a good attorney until he didn't do his job, and then from there on he "covered his own A***" and hung mine out to dry...................

His favorite saying "I'm waiting on the Trustee"..... and "NO, you can't do that" when it came to filing a petition with the Court....

You can still hunt a reputable attorney and pull out a "lemon"............. especially if he screws up and starts taking care of #1 - HIMSELF................

My thoughts,

[no_it_all]

<snip> How many posts have you seen were a Pro Se filer stated they wished they had legal advice? How many posts have you seen were a poster was unhappy with the attorney? Myself, I've never seen a post from a Pro Se wishing they had sought an attorney, OTOH, I see posts every day concerning problems with an attorney matter.

Interesting conclusions. My only caveat would be that the sample group supplying the data (of primary importance in any data analysis) is skewed towards Pro se filers. I don't imagine filers that have competent attorney representation are necessarily rooting around the internet boasting on BK sites their utter joy of attorney selection. I do believe however, that if a filer had a terrible attorney and was completely unsatisfied, they just might take the time to Google, subscribe, post and vent.

The results would be a preponderance of posts complaining of attorneys and a like amount of posts extolling the virtues of Pro se filings. Neither of which are likely valid data points...So although your conclusions may be correct given the data, the data was likely skewed.

There have been about a quarter of a million bankruptcy filings this year. The majority of those probably have not posted their BK experiences to this site.

[djk]

<snip>

There have been about a quarter of a million bankruptcy filings this year. The majority of those probably have not posted their BK experiences to this site.

statistics is an interesting field. if you do the research, I think you will find that the data set represented by posts to the group may in fact mirror the total data set of all individuals. you should find that given the smaller subset of posters, it should match the overall greater set in precentages of positive as well as negative experiences across the spectrum. In other words, everyone does not need to chime in to gain a statistical perspective. try it, you may find it useful.

[anonymuse]

But you don't know if you have a representative sample of the whole population (not just the online population which may be different due to educational background, etc.)

I could go on and on about this--I love statistics but was forced to know more than I wanted in a year of graduate statistics.

Human nature is the other element. People are more apt to write when they're PO'd than when everything goes great.