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    What's The Worst That Could Happen?

    I've got a certain "family member" who, I just found out from our conversation this morning, is in some hot water.

    Last December, she bounced a bunch of checks, and ended up $800 in the hole ... $400 of which was bounced check fees. She talked to her bank, and luckily the president/manager of the bank is a girl she went to school with. The bank agreed to drop the NSF fees THAT ONE TIME, and the girl gave her some much-needed pointers on handling her checkbook. My "family member" got caught back up, and was doing fine ...

    (I'll let her e-mail take over from here ... I'm editing out any personal details ... )

    During the next few months, I did really good. I wrote down everything, called the automated thing every single day 10 times a day, and went online to check the balance 10 times a day. Then I goofed again. My problem was (IS!!!!) that I am/was check happy. I write tons and tons of checks, and hope I can beat the bank with a deposit before those checks clear. BIG booboo. What I do is (well what I DID) go to 5-6 different grocery stores, buy something really cheap, and write the check for $20-$25 OVER the amount. I'd gather up a bunch of those, then deposit it in the bank. I was so scared of having more fees that'd I'd do that 3-4 times a WEEK. THEN all those checks would come out of (her husband's) check that Friday, and what was left out of his check would not be enough to cover bills that week. So off I'd go making my rounds to grocery stores trying to get enough to deposit to cover the bills. Same cycle over and over and over every week.

    Well.....

    Last week, I hit my limit. We got in the hole over $300 and there was NO WAY I could make it up in grocery store trips. I didn't even try. I didn't ask Momma for money to bail me out, and I didn't ask Daddy for money to bail me out. I just sucked it up and come up with the idea of opening a new acct somewhere else.....(name of new bank). If he had of deposited his check Thursday for $730 at (name of current bank), our balance would have been brought up to $300. :-| If he had of checked the balance, he would have been MAJORLY FURIOUS that over half his check was gone with no money to pay the Hyundai, the Grand Prix, Directv, and his cell phone. So I called him and told him to cash his check and hang on to it. Then I told him about my goof-up and the plan to save his check and put it in a new acct.

    SO......

    He agreed, after fussing of course. So now I grounded myself from the checkbook, and bills are paid with money orders ONLY. I sent the Hyundai a money order and the Grand Prix a money order. So now we have the job of paying back (current bank). She also told me that day that we'd have "so much" time to get it in the positive before our acct was closed. I really like (current bank), and we're gonna try to salvage it.
    I'm still reeling ... I mean, I knew she had some financial problems, but I didn't know it was THIS bad.

    My "family member" THINKS (but isn't sure) that the bank has paid all the would've-been bounced checks, but she's still in trouble with the bank itself for the NSF fees. She owes the bank almost $400.

    What's the worst that can happen if she doesn't pay up? "Just" the current bank account getting closed? Or can they get her for check fraud ... as in JAIL TIME? After all, she did write checks that she knew were no good at the time!

    Years ago, one could pretty well count on checks taking at least 2-5 days to clear the bank, even locally. But these days, checks clear VERY quickly ... sometimes instantly (if you write a check at our Walmart, it goes through RIGHT THEN, or so they say).

    Any thoughts?

    I've already told her that you CANNOT play "Beat The Bank" and win these days!

    BTW, this is the same person who admitted a few weeks ago that she hasn't made a payment on any of her credit cards in over a year ...

    And she can't file bankruptcy, at least not anytime soon. She just filed 4 or so years ago ... for careless use of credit cards.

    I'm so worried about her, but there's nothing I can do to help her out financially. And even if I could, I'm not sure it would REALLY be helping her ... in the long run, I mean ... if that makes sense.

    ETA: And I'd like to believe that her going to "money orders only" is a start ... but I've seen it too many times already. A promise to do better ... and 3-4 months later, she's in the same (or worse) predicament ...
    Last edited by Annika; 08-27-2007, 09:46 AM.
    Filed Chapter 7 (Medical Bills) - 12/16/04
    341 Meeting - 1/28/05 | Discharged - 3/31/05 | Case Closed, No Assets - 7/5/05
    Update 2/15/11 - Still totally debt-free except for the mortgage, which we're paying down quickly!

    #2
    annika - I am always of the opinion that, unless you know 99% sure that any $ help you give a friend or family member will permanently fix their financial problems - don't do it!

    Buying them dinner or a gift is one thing, but beyond that, no.

    Sounds like she has a major problem running her financial life.
    She should simply STOP and use this rule: If she can't pay cash, DO NOT buy it! It also sounds like she lives hand to mouth, which also is unfortunate. But she has a problem, and needs to admit it and commit to fixing the problems. You can help with that part, to support her.

    Good luck!
    Filed Business Chapter 7: 7/11/07
    341 Meeting: 8/8/07 Asset Case
    US Trustee reviewed case/resolved 9/14/07
    Discharged: 10/11/07 Closed: 11/2/08

    Comment


      #3
      Agree 100%!.. Do not help her financially anymore if she asked for $$... but give her and her hubby this web site link/pointer so they can both learn and well-managed their financial ruins before... well... too-late-filing-for-a-fresh-BK happens!...

      Comment


        #4
        Hi Annika - glad you came back to see us! We've missed you!

        Agree with the advice you've already been given plus I have another suggestion to add....

        Your "family member's" husband really needs to get involved here. The two of them need to sit down once a week TOGETHER to sort out who's going to be paid, when they will be paid, and how much. Being held publicly accountable helps the credit-addicted (which is the real problem here) stay on the straight and narrow much longer than promises which can impulsively be broken when triggered by the right circumstances.

        Wish I had done this myself with my own "family member"....but I didn't and that's how we ended up in Ch 13 bankruptcy
        Last edited by lrprn; 08-27-2007, 11:10 AM.
        I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice nor a statement of the law - only a lawyer can provide those.

        06/01/06 - Filed Ch 13
        06/28/06 - 341 Meeting
        07/18/06 - Confirmation Hearing - not confirmed, 3 objections
        10/05/06 - Hearing to resolve 2 trustee objections
        01/24/07 - Judge dismisses mortgage company objection
        09/27/07 - Confirmed at last!
        06/10/11 - Trustee confirms all payments made
        08/10/11 - DISCHARGED !

        10/02/11 - CASE CLOSED
        Countdown: 60 months paid, 0 months to go

        Comment


          #5
          It almost sounds as if there may be emotional issues with your family member as well---depression/bpd perhaps, with the credit addiction/money issue as a symptom. It might be worth the effort to at some point suggest counseling (some clinics offer sliding scale).

          I hope I didn't offend.....

          -sue
          Filed 07/07, $120k unsecured debt
          Plan: $400 (includes cram down) 60 months
          Brilliant attorney, decent trustee, awesome plan

          Comment


            #6
            Are you my sister talking about our Mother??????? Seriously???????? Our Mom JUST did this AND we found out she's 10 months behind on rent and JUST got the eviction notice. Her husband left her yesterday (not our DAd).

            Our Mother did this 20+ years ago and ended up with a conviction of bad check writing. I don't know if they still do that, I'm assuming yes, but maybe now it's for higher amounts?
            Last edited by demismom; 08-28-2007, 02:53 AM. Reason: Added Info
            Petition Filed 6/4/07 :clapping:
            341 meeting 7/31/07 :clapping: :unsure:
            First Meeting Held and Trustee's Report of No Distribution 8/2 :yahoo::yahoo:
            10/15/2007 - DISCHARGED!:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

            Comment


              #7
              Yes, people still "do time" for writing bad checks..........depending on the amount/quantitiy of checks determines whether they do their time in county jail or "big house".....

              If someone in your family is having serious depression/emotional problems and their finances have turned upside down, help them get professional counseling for their depression/emotional problems. Try your best to get them to see a doctor and talk it over.

              If it is a parent - get all siblings together and confront that parent and let them know your there to help them and get their lives back on track.

              Its hard, and many will "balk" on you, but at least you will know you have tried to help them and give it your best effort. After that, their on their own...... make it or break it.....

              You can't help someone who won't help themselves......
              Minny

              "It's amazing the paths that our feet sometimes follow in life".

              My suggestions are from "personal experience" and research only. Do not consider this as legal advice. Each bankruptcy case is different.

              Comment


                #8
                IMO, the way she was writing checks is definitely similar to someone funding an addiction of some sort.

                Yes, if the bank wants, due to the way those checks leave a paper trail, she could very well be setting herself up for check fraud and could easily go to jail/prison for committing fraud.

                Please, tell her to stop!
                Filed Oct 2005discharged February 2007,Shapeless in the fire's glow, tell me if you think you know,
                Who it was we were below, where we've been and where we go

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Annika View Post
                  I'm so worried about her, but there's nothing I can do to help her out financially. And even if I could, I'm not sure it would REALLY be helping her ... in the long run, I mean ... if that makes sense.

                  ETA: And I'd like to believe that her going to "money orders only" is a start ... but I've seen it too many times already. A promise to do better ... and 3-4 months later, she's in the same (or worse) predicament ...
                  "Check 21" is what is new with check processing. What your family member is attempting to do is called "Check Kiteing" and it is illegal but she probably won't get busted for it, but she could be in big trouble for writing hot checks, as you know.

                  It sounds like these were relatively small amounts, less than $200.00 each. Check out your state laws for the amount required to trigger the various level of charges.

                  This is one time where sticking her head in the sand will get her in more trouble. If the checks are returned to the merchants, she will have some time before they turn them over to the local D.A, so she needs to get busy with getting the money together to pay these off before they do turn them over, including the fees the merchants are going to charge. I highly suggest she have a garage sale if necessary to raise some cash quickly. It wouldn't hurt her to give up a few prized possessions to get herself out of this mess...maybe she would learn a lesson.

                  Personally, I would pay the merchants before I pay the bank. The bank can write off the amount and it goes against her credit but the District Attorney can do a whole lot worse than that. Close the bank account, or work out something with them if she wants to keep the account open. Possibly the bank will convert the fess to a loan she can pay out over time, but the most important thing is to keep those checks from going to the District Attorney.

                  However, I have heard of people making payments to the local D.A.'s office for bad checks without being prosecuted. Once they are turned over, she need to take the initiative with the day, not wait for it to go to a warrant.

                  Let me stress one more time, she can not ignore these checks if they are returned to the merchants.

                  Good luck.

                  Now for the lighter side of this: I had a coozie once that read..."I can't be overdrawn, I still have checks." This is the coozie I used everyday while in college.... majoring in accounting. he he he
                  Last edited by Granny; 08-28-2007, 06:04 AM.
                  I used to have a life, now I have grandkids.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I agree with Granny. She should take care of the merchants first. They would be the ones to press charges for writing bad checks. As for the bank, they will try to collect the $$ and they will notify Chex-systems which will ban her from opening another account with any other financial institution. Her best way to go after this is money orders only. Some people just are not good with a checking account, debit card, etc....These are usually the people that banks love.....lots of fee income. I hope everything works out for your sister.
                    sigpicPersevere: "To continue a course of action, in spite of difficulty, opposition or discouragement."

                    Chapter 13: Discharged 03/15/2010. Closed 05/19/2010::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Granny pointed out Check21. The New Law that allows Debits to clear before Deposits are credited. It's a Law that Banks lobbied hard to get. That's a big part of the reason your friend cannot "beat the Bank". The law is on the Bank's side.

                      Another thing that can happen with your friend's acct,......... Depending on the Bank's Policy,........... Every day her acct is NSF, the bank could be adding charges for the NSF status. So the $400 NSF balance could have grown. Your friend needs to check on that too.

                      As others have said, your friend has a problem. Basically, it's a gambling addiction. She's not going to casinos but she's gambling none the less.

                      Giving her money to bail her out this time won't help. She'll just start another vicious cycle sometime in the near future. Until she faces her demons, she's not gonna be able to move in a positive direction.
                      Filed Ch 7 - 09/06
                      Discharged - 12/2006
                      Officially Declared No Asset - 03/2007
                      Closed - 04/2007

                      I am not an attorney. My comments are based on personal experience and research. Always consult an attorney in your area to address concerns related to your particular situation.

                      Another good thing about being poor is that when you are seventy your children will not have declared you legally insane in order to gain control of your estate. - Woody Allen...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I'm gonna echo many of the others here. Though it is painful, I would not loan your 'family member' any money.

                        She had a bankruptcy 4 years ago
                        She already messed up one deal with the bank that was 3-4 months ago. (Her friend that helped get her NSF removed is probably having to answer to her boss now).
                        She's back in the same situation.


                        Essentially her and her husband need to go to a cash and carry policy. It sounds like their bills may exceed their income. Its a painful lesson. Clearly she can't declare bankruptcy again.

                        You can still do time for check fraud.

                        (Incidentally Wal Marts everywhere instantly take out your funds, same with Roses and some other places.)

                        Most likely you mentioned that she's not been paying her credit cards either for about a year. She's probably going to start hearing from them soon too.

                        She needs to sit down with her husband and let him know how bad the situation is. Then together they need to figure out a plan to get out of it, which might necessitate her taking on a job or two or three.

                        Since they can't file bankruptcy I might suggest Dave Ramsey's book Financial Peace, and possibly if they can attend his Financial Peace University. (Many churches offer the program).

                        I wish them luck.

                        John
                        May 31st, 2007: Petition Filed by my lawyer
                        July 2nd, 2007: 341 Meeting Held
                        September 4th, 2007: Discharged and Closed.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by SinkingFast View Post
                          Granny pointed out Check21. The New Law that allows Debits to clear before Deposits are credited. It's a Law that Banks lobbied hard to get. That's a big part of the reason your friend cannot "beat the Bank". The law is on the Bank's side.
                          Do you know if this is State law or FDIC law? Our bank doesn't do this, they guarantee that CREDITS go first, THEN Debits.
                          Petition Filed 6/4/07 :clapping:
                          341 meeting 7/31/07 :clapping: :unsure:
                          First Meeting Held and Trustee's Report of No Distribution 8/2 :yahoo::yahoo:
                          10/15/2007 - DISCHARGED!:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I hate to disagree with SinkingFast, but Check 21 didn't change the order in which items are posted, that's a decision made by each bank. Check21, which is federal, paved the way for faster posting of withdrawals, either by debit cards or checks. The biggest impact here was in checks because Check21 now allows for electronic versions of checks to post immediately. This is why Wal-Mart hands your check back to you, they have processed the check as an electronic transfer. With the passing of Check21, any merchant (and this includes credit card payments made by check) has the option to process your paper check as an electronic check and it happens overnight, even through 2 different federal reserve branches. In essence, the only float now is with the post office for checks that are mailed.
                            Last edited by Granny; 08-28-2007, 09:50 PM.
                            I used to have a life, now I have grandkids.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Her husband needs to do wht my BIL did to my sister, who is famous for this. My sister went a step worse..many steps, by saying someone 'stole' her debit card to her hubby who then kicked out his future DIL after blaming her!!
                              ANYHOW, HE NEEDS TO BUY A LOCKBOX!! Only he must know they combo or hold the key. He must then put the checkbook, bank info and CC's inside. He must do ALL banking and check writing until she gets help. If she needs to shop, he will have to be with her. Or give her limited CASH to use. I know my sister STILL has to be treated this way, like a child. Stinks, but some people never learn.
                              I am shocked her hubby hasnt kicked her out. He must be a good guy. My BIL and sister nearly divorced.
                              Bad news is my sister went out and applied for more credit in her name and managed to rack up 20K in a year. She has NO CLUE what she even bought.
                              Some people..
                              WAM
                              ch7 8/07 CLOSED: 11/07 Rebuilding and saving.
                              WAMU unsecured $2,000 Capital One unsecured $500
                              PAID OFF MONTHLY!!!

                              Comment

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