Lost

[mcszele]

I'm at a loss on how to fill out some of this paperwork. I'm not married but have a live in girlfriend and a two year old. Because we're not married do I have to use the median figures for a household of one, or do I use it for three? Do I have to drag my girlfriend into this by submitting her income and expenses too? I'm so lost!

Michael

[Minnymouth]

Since you are not married you would be filing separately as an individual. If you girlfriends name on anything with yours? If so you are shared owners.

Have a consultation with a couple of bk attorneys and get the scope on what your up against and the options open too you.

[SinkingFast]

Spend some time researching and learning. And, as Minny suggested,......... Schedule several Consults with BK attnys. Generally speaking, Consults are free. So be sure to ask when you call to schedule with different attnys.

There's several good books that have been recommended here. The Nolo book. BK for Dummies.

Several folk here have successfully filed BK Pro Se. That's on your own, without a lawyer. BUT,........ You need to know what you're doing before you try to complete the BK paperwork.

[biotechsolution]

If your girlfriend works then you may not want to include her because they could add her income to yours or at least a portion of it. It also could kick you over the top for mean incomes. If you are below the income for being single you can make everything easy and just independently.

[jennordhavn]

I'm at a loss on how to fill out some of this paperwork. I'm not married but have a live in girlfriend and a two year old. Because we're not married do I have to use the median figures for a household of one, or do I use it for three? Do I have to drag my girlfriend into this by submitting her income and expenses too? I'm so lost!

Michael

If you don't own anything together, I would not include her income or expenses. Just make sure when you do your expenses, you don't include any of her "portion". For example, if your rent is $1000 and she pays $500 only put $500 on your expense sheet. Also, unless you claim your child on your tax return, I would not include him/her in your household number.

I am engaged, but I'm not including any of my fiance's income (he doesn't have any right now anyways as he's going to school) or expenses. We don't own anything together so I don't see the point. We have a child together, but I will be claiming her on my taxes and I paid daycare expenses for her earlier this year, so I will be including her in my household number.

This is just my opinion. I did consult a BK attorney last year and he said this would be ok as long as I didn't try to include any of my fiance's expenses. The best option would be to consult an attorney and get his/her opinion.

[mcszele]

OK, I get the part of not claiming her part of the rent. She pays half of the rent, and I'm responsible for the rest of the household bills, because she is also in school and can't work as much as I do. But the catch is if I just do the median household expenses of one, it doesn't come close to what I'm really paying in food, diapers, child care and clothes for the baby. So, how do I reflect what I really pay, and not make it look suspicious when I'm filing? If I use the regular figures for one it comes out looking like I have like $1000.00 of disposable income every month when I don't have anywhere close to that.

[SinkingFast]

Who claims your baby as a dependent on your Income Taxes?? You or your GF??

If you do, then you can claim your baby in BK as well. Going from a Household of 1 to a Household of 2 gets you some more $$$'s/year on the Median. That would also allow you to claim the monies you spend on Day Care, diapers, immunizations, and such.

[mcszele]

Who claims your baby as a dependent on your Income Taxes?? You or your GF??

She claims the baby. She gets the better deal on her refund because she makes a lot less then I do.

So what you're telling me is that I can't claim all the extra expenses that I actually have unless I'm claiming her on my taxes?

[nc73]

She claims the baby. She gets the better deal on her refund because she makes a lot less then I do.

So what you're telling me is that I can't claim all the extra expenses that I actually have unless I'm claiming her on my taxes?

Me thinks so.. unless you help with daycare payments, etc.

[mcszele]

I do help with the daycare expenses, etc. That's why I'm trying to find a way to claim these very real expenses without getting them thinking that I'm trying to fake the expenses.

[jennordhavn]

I do help with the daycare expenses, etc. That's why I'm trying to find a way to claim these very real expenses without getting them thinking that I'm trying to fake the expenses.

You should be able to still put down the expenses you pay for the child. Or maybe add them up and put it as "child support" since that is what it's being used for. It would be a similar situation if you didn't live with the Mom but still paid expenses for the baby, so I don't see why you can't claim the expenses.

So for household size you are just 1, but I think you can still claim actual expenses on the Schedules. Does that make sense?

[zwiepak]

Interesting you should bring this topic up. I've been doing research on it over the last few hours.

(...and by the way, everything I write below this sentence, is only useful to run by an attorney!)

Apparently, I read somewhere, and I didn't save the link Some court somewhere ruled that unless the income from others in the household go to support YOU, it should not be included. The US Trustee had argued to the Judge that since "household" isn't really defined by the IRS, you should state the number of people in your "household", as you would if they were considered "dependents" from the IRS point of view, the Judge struck this down, and referred to some text where (Congress is it?), eplicitly defined "household". However, how you actually "benefit" from what others pay into the "household" is another matter.

I guess the overall point here is, not making someone else's expenses YOUR income by implication.

As such, I'm going to run this by an attorney in the State I'm filing. I would imagine a competent BK attorney would know how to answer this off the top of their head... I'll share what they say...!

Edit:

Found that link!!!

http://dcbabk.wordpress.com/2007/07/26/household-size-and-median-income-irs-v-census-bureau/

[zwiepak]

Err, sorry, but here's the precise code...

"(10A) The term "current monthly income" -
(A) means the average monthly income from all sources that
the debtor receives (or in a joint case the debtor and the
debtor's spouse receive) without regard to whether such income
is taxable income, derived during the 6-month period ending on -

(i) the last day of the calendar month immediately
preceding the date of the commencement of the case if the
debtor files the schedule of current income required by
section 521(a)(1)(B)(ii); or
(ii) the date on which current income is determined by the
court for purposes of this title if the debtor does not file
the schedule of current income required by section
521(a)(1)(B)(ii); and

(B) includes any amount paid by any entity other than the
debtor (or in a joint case the debtor and the debtor's spouse),
on a regular basis for the household expenses of the debtor or
the debtor's dependents (and in a joint case the debtor's
spouse if not otherwise a dependent), but excludes benefits
received under the Social Security Act, payments to victims of
war crimes or crimes against humanity on account of their
status as victims of such crimes, and payments to victims of
international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of title
18) or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of title
18) on account of their status as victims of such terrorism."


Now, when I read that, I take that to mean, paying MY household expenses... Someone else paying MY portion of the "household" expenses...

This is what I need clarification of...

[mcszele]

So I met with the first lawyer today, and he said that in our area they require me to use my girlfriends income as part of the process. On the upside that turns my median line from a household of one to a household of three, which means I won't have trouble passing the means test. I passed with one, three just makes it that much easier. He also said that my case was pretty straight forward and shouldn't be complicated at all. I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about the prospects now. Here's hoping that it goes well.

[danaf]

be careful. I thought your situation was intriguing so I went to the means calculator test to see what the options were. (not that this test is the end all)

but it says

'You may have noticed already that changing the number of persons in the household dramatically affects the median income figure. You can't include a roommate who is not your dependent in your household size, yet you may have to include the portion of their income that contributes to the overall income of the household. See the help topic on that subject.'

Your girlfriend, since you are not married, is not your dependent and I think counts as a roommate at this point. So it is not clear that you can jump to 3 in your household for median income purposes.

research more and get a few more opinions from lawyers.