2nd Attorney--Apparently, I am not getting it...

[DustinLH00]

OK, so I met with my 2nd attorney today. Good news-I really like the guy, one of the nicest people I have met. Bad news-I still make too much money to file.

It was my understanding that the means test was used when your gross income exceeded the median income for your state. The test would factor in things like taxes, health insurance premiums and a standard automatic deduction to see if your income is truly over.

I am being told now, for the 2nd time that if your gross income exceeds the median income then you mist file a Chapter 13. The means test is then used to determine your disposable income for a Chapter 13 payment. If your disposable income is negative, as is my case, then you are stuck.

Is this accurate? I am apparently not getting this at all. All I know is that I make $42,840.00 salary at my primary job. And I am on track to make $5,007at my 2nd job at the pace I am going. These total $47,847 and the median income for Illinois is $47,355.

I appreciate your input.

[hopeforus]

Can you just quit your second job and wait a few months to file?

[hopeforus]

and that does sound odd about the means test. not what my impression has been at all.

[DustinLH00]

Unfortunately, I need the 2nd job for the next 18 months, even if I do file. So I cannot quit it. I just don't get how they can tell me I cannot file bankruptcy. "You make too much money to file a Ch 7 and you don't make enough money to file a Ch 13" WTF am I supposed to do then????

Can you just quit your second job and wait a few months to file?

[justbroke]

I am being told now, for the 2nd time that if your gross income exceeds the median income then you mist file a Chapter 13... Is this accurate?

Not totally. Generally, an over-the-median income debtor will find trouble in getting a discharge. However, it's done every single day by many debtors. The attorney consulted with probably ran your number quickly and decided that there's just not enough there to get into a Chapter 7 without a fight, and still no guarantees.

Try looking for a lawyer who only does Chapter 7. If you go to the mills or firms which deal primarily with Chapter 13... everything will look like a Chapter 13 to them. (Just a general observation.)

I am apparently not getting this at all. All I know is that I make $42,840.00 salary at my primary job. And I am on track to make $5,007at my 2nd job at the pace I am going. These total $47,847 and the median income for Illinois is $47,355.

With you being soooo close to the median (by mere dollars), methinks you have been talking to "Chapter 13" lawyers.

However, I don't know or understand your debt. If you have no major secured debt (house/mortgage, cars), then the attorney you consulted with may be seeing the "other" aspect of Chapter 7. Even if you are below median, doesn't mean you are automatically in a Chapter 7. The lawyers and the Trustee will look to your actual expenses on Schedule J. If Schedule I income less Schedule J expenses yields a number of $100+, your case is considered an abuse, and you're dismissed or pushed to a Chpater 13.

I'm wondering what your expenses were when you consulted.

[DustinLH00]

He won't even run my numbers for a 13. He does not want me to do a 13 since I am so close. I do have a home (1st and 2nd mtg) and car that I will be reaffirming. I am filing soley on credit card debt that is all current.

Not totally. Generally, an over-the-median income debtor will find trouble in getting a discharge. However, it's done every single day by many debtors. The attorney consulted with probably ran your number quickly and decided that there's just not enough there to get into a Chapter 7 without a fight, and still no guarantees.

Try looking for a lawyer who only does Chapter 7. If you go to the mills or firms which deal primarily with Chapter 13... everything will look like a Chapter 13 to them. (Just a general observation.)

With you being soooo close to the median (by mere dollars), methinks you have been talking to "Chapter 13" lawyers.

However, I don't know or understand your debt. If you have no major secured debt (house/mortgage, cars), then the attorney you consulted with may be seeing the "other" aspect of Chapter 7. Even if you are below median, doesn't mean you are automatically in a Chapter 7. The lawyers and the Trustee will look to your actual expenses on Schedule J. If Schedule I income less Schedule J expenses yields a number of $100+, your case is considered an abuse, and you're dismissed or pushed to a Chpater 13.

I'm wondering what your expenses were when you consulted.

[justbroke]

He won't even run my numbers for a 13. He does not want me to do a 13 since I am so close. I do have a home (1st and 2nd mtg) and car that I will be reaffirming. I am filing soley on credit card debt that is all current.

Strange... won't run the numbers for a Chapter 13, but won't let you file Chapter 7 either. Now I'm confused. The fact of being over the median has nothing to do with being able to file a Chapter 7. The Means Test... which being over the median forces your to take... is what determines whether your filing is an abuse. (Okay, there are good faith and totality reasons too, but those are rare.)

I just don't understand. Is he waiting for some income to "average" or "roll" off your six-month lookback. I just don't get it.

[DustinLH00]

And I got the same story from the last attorney, only I like this one 10,000 times better. I will post my means test results in the following reply. There is nothing that he is waiting to fall off of my income either. Nothing will change there.

Strange... won't run the numbers for a Chapter 13, but won't let you file Chapter 7 either. Now I'm confused. The fact of being over the median has nothing to do with being able to file a Chapter 7. The Means Test... which being over the median forces your to take... is what determines whether your filing is an abuse. (Okay, there are good faith and totality reasons too, but those are rare.)

I just don't understand. Is he waiting for some income to "average" or "roll" off your six-month lookback. I just don't get it.

[DustinLH00]

These were my means tests results and that income is overly generous, I was trying to over compensate...

Monthly Income: $4,100

Automatic Deductions: $2,547
Other Deductions (Health & Dental Ins): $104
Deduction for Secured Debt: $1,613
Total Deductions: $4,264

Monthly Disposable Income: -$164 (or -$9,821 over 5 years)

[justbroke]

What's in the "automatic deductions". Break it down by income taxes, union fees/dues, contributions to retirement plans, retirement plan loan paybacks, etc.

That number seems to large.

[DustinLH00]

That number ($2,547) is broken down:

Food, clothing, household supplies, personal care, misc (National Standards)$517
National Standards Health Care $60
Housing and utilities IRS Standards (local) $438
Vehicle Operation Expense (Natioan Standards) $183
Montly Taxes (other necessary expenses) $960

Actual total is $2,158 I think I see a prob with vehicle cost calculation...stand by please

What's in the "automatic deductions". Break it down by income taxes, union fees/dues, contributions to retirement plans, retirement plan loan paybacks, etc.

That number seems to large.

[justbroke]

That number ($2,547) is broken down:

Food, clothing, household supplies, personal care, misc (National Standards)$517
National Standards Health Care $60
Housing and utilities IRS Standards (local) $438
Vehicle Operation Expense (Natioan Standards) $183
Montly Taxes (other necessary expenses) $960

Actual total is $2,158 I think I see a prob with vehicle cost calculation...stand by please

Do you generally get a tax refund annually as well? What is that usually?

(The missing $489 is the allowance you get for a vehicle that is encumbered by a loan. So, that's what you missed above.)

[keepmine]

I am filing soley on credit card debt that is all current.

This may be the problem. You can't count payments to debts that you'll discharge as an expense.
These payments may well be enough dispsoable income to keep you from filing a Chapter 7.

[DustinLH00]

On the NOLO means test, I entered my 2nd mortgage on one of the vehicle payment lines as I am reaffirming it and wanted to include it, however it messed up the vehicle allowance portion.

I re-did the means test and combined my 1st and 2nd payment so that it would not be in the wrong spot. I know have a monthly disposable income of $198 and that puts me in a Chapter 13.

I apologize, this was a clerical error on my part, but at least I see that now. So he wants me to wait and see what Illinois' new median income figure will be this October...he thinks I may squeeze in under that amount...

Do you generally get a tax refund annually as well? What is that usually?

(The missing $489 is the allowance you get for a vehicle that is encumbered by a loan. So, that's what you missed above.)

[DustinLH00]

I do get a tax refund annually. It is around $2,200. Do you see this as a problem?

Do you generally get a tax refund annually as well? What is that usually?

(The missing $489 is the allowance you get for a vehicle that is encumbered by a loan. So, that's what you missed above.)