Father filed...causing problems for me...HELP!

[BKDefender]

A co-signer or co-borrower is not a creditor in bankruptcy (creditor=an entity that has a claim for money or liability owed by the debtor.) You are a co-debtor not a creditor. But supplying false information to the bankruptcy court knowingly is a violation of bankruptcy law and if it is bad enough it can be grounds for dismissal of the case.

You might consider telling his BK attorney that if they don't correct the information and if they don't work with you to make sure the bankruptcy court knows that your father is just a cosigner but that it is your car and you have made every single payment on it, that you will inform the U.S. Trustee's office in the Department of Justice about what your father is doing. The info is at http://www.justice.gov/ust/eo/fraud/index.htm
You can also contact the assigned chapter 7 trustee to tell him what your father is doing. The idea is to get his case dismissed, then you pay off the car and get the title, then he re-file his bankruptcy case without the car as an asset.

--William

[Dst1]

No, that's error. The key document in this transaction becomes the bill of sale. Since this is financed I assume you bought the car from a dealer. Who did the dealer sell the car to? The dealer is required to prepare a bill of sale (as far as I know this applies to all states). The bill of sale documents who the car was sold to. It could have been sold to you, to him, or to both of you.

The reason you don't have the title is because the car has not been paid off yet. Most of the time the lender holds the title until the loan is paid off. Sometimes they hold the title in their name and sometimes they hold it it the name of the person who the car was sold too. This varies by state law.

Financing just gives a company an ownership interest in the car. There is a real difference between a primary borrower, a co-signer, and a joint loan. A joint loan is noramlly only given when both parties own the car. The primary borrower/co-signer relationship is done when only one person owns the car. Whether he is the "primary borrower" or the "cosigner" makes a world of difference because it tells the finance company who owns the car.

[OhioFiler]

I actually just called my Dad since it's become a chore dealing with his lawyer.

He informed me that he told her I don't live with him and gave her my address. At that point, it was HER error that had the address listed as his.

I am able to register the car in the state of TN and it is registered in our names jointly. Where would I begin on getting a copy of the title? I have no idea who the title agency even is, honestly. Do I go through the state or is that something the lien holder would have?

His attorney isn't even a bankruptcy attorney and has admitted her lack of knowledge a few times...then when I call her out on something, she gets defensive and snappy with me. I told him this morning that I'm not going to have her talking to me like I'm some 18 year old little girl when I'm 31 and know enough to know when I'm being screwed.

To HIS credit, for once in my life, he is completely willing to transfer ownership...and that's what I presented to his lawyer that I wanted. She, however, is a little dense and only wants to make more work for herself...and screw me.

He said he's going to talk to her at the 341 meeting tomorrow. I'll update you guys...if it gets ugly, looks like it's time to put an attorney on retainer.

It sounds like both of you are owners. Given that scenario, until you need to sell the car you won't need to do anything as the debt remains your responsibility. If he is willing to transfer title of the vehicle to you after the bankruptcy all will be fine and dandy for you.

You should call him back and tell him 1) next time hire a better attorney and 2) suggest he join bkforum!

[kristierenee]

I actually just called my Dad since it's become a chore dealing with his lawyer.

He informed me that he told her I don't live with him and gave her my address. At that point, it was HER error that had the address listed as his.

I am able to register the car in the state of TN and it is registered in our names jointly. Where would I begin on getting a copy of the title? I have no idea who the title agency even is, honestly. Do I go through the state or is that something the lien holder would have?

His attorney isn't even a bankruptcy attorney and has admitted her lack of knowledge a few times...then when I call her out on something, she gets defensive and snappy with me. I told him this morning that I'm not going to have her talking to me like I'm some 18 year old little girl when I'm 31 and know enough to know when I'm being screwed.

To HIS credit, for once in my life, he is completely willing to transfer ownership...and that's what I presented to his lawyer that I wanted. She, however, is a little dense and only wants to make more work for herself...and screw me.

He said he's going to talk to her at the 341 meeting tomorrow. I'll update you guys...if it gets ugly, looks like it's time to put an attorney on retainer.

[OhioFiler]

I would petition the court and ask for time to object since he falsified his creditor list knowingly, if you believe you should attend.

How do you get license plates for the vehicle? Is the car registered in your name? Can you go to the title agency and ask for a duplicate title?

If that car is in his name and you pay it off AND he is in fact unable to exempt it you may lose it. DO NOT PAY OFF THE LOAN!

Unfortunately, you didn't cut him out of your life 3 years ago. So long as you have this debt with him and the issue of ownership of the vehicle, you are not out of his life.

If he does own the car legally, I would hope that once his bankruptcy is complete he would willingly transfer the title to you.

I would also tell his attorney to kiss my azz. You have every right in the world to represent yourself in this matter and her dismissal of you is unethical.

I would continue paying the monthly payment each month until after he is discharged then enter into negotiations with him directly on transferring ownership to you. Your last resort would be small claims court as lrprn suggests.

[kristierenee]

You are correct in assuming I've made EVERY payment. He hasn't so much as given me a dime towards one of them.

I did sign the papers on the loan at the time of purchase and I am a co-borrower on the loan according to the acquisition company and all documentation that I own. In fact, before he filed, when I was able to view my account information online, it showed him listed as primary borrower and me as a co-borrower. Obviously though, I can't access that now. Funny enough, his attorney won't even believe me that he's the primary borrower. He corrected her numerous times, the reaffirmation packet lists him as primary...but she INSISTS on only listing him as a cosigner.

I'm trying my best to keep my emotions out of this, but it's difficult with a past history of verbal and mental abuse on top of abandonment when I was a child. There's about a million other things that play into that too...but it's not important to the bankruptcy. It just makes it hard to deal with personally since I cut him out of my life over 3 years ago and this is forcing me to deal with him again.

I'm doing my best NOT to hire a lawyer because honestly, I don't really have the money to deal with the expense and I don't need him making ME file. The worst part about all of this is that since he went about this SO underhanded, I wouldn't have time to get there or send someone there for the 341 meeting because it's tomorrow. To say that I'm frustrated right now would be THE understatement of the year.

[lrprn]

Ok, let's see if I have this straight.

Your dad co-signed a car loan for you. I'm assuming that you have been making the car payments, right?

Your estranged dad filed bk recently and didn't want you to find out, so he gave his address as your mailing address. This way you wouldn't ever get what the court mails out to co-signers in this situation.

Your dad's lawyer doesn't want you to pay off the car as you planned because your dad needs what's left on the car loan to ensure he can pass the Means Test and file Ch 7. In fact, she would like you to redeem the car which helps your dad but (and you are correct) screws you. (Don't do it.)

A question for you - are you listed on the original car loan papers as a co-borrower and did you sign the original papers? That's going to be key. If your dad is the only financially responsible person listed on the loan, then although you've been paying for everything for years, in the eyes of the court he's the legal owner of the car. You have no legal claim to it.

Here's what could play out:

(1) If you are a signed co-borrower equally responsible for paying on the loan, then your dad keeps the loan as a part of his bankruptcy. When he's discharged, his responsibility to pay the loan is removed and you become the primary borrower. You pay off the loan in full and the title comes to you.

(2) However, if you are not a signed co-borrower, then when your dad's bankruptcy is discharged, if you want to keep the car, you'll have to continue to make the payments on time the way you do now or pay off the loan in full then. Once the car is paid in full, the title will go to your dad because he's the only financially responsible person listed on the loan. If he refuses to surrender the title to you, then depending on how much the car's current market value is at that time, you could take him to small claims court to force him to release it to you.

The key here is to do your best to keep your emotions and troubled history with your dad out of the decision-making around this unfortunate situation and logically, coldly figure out what gives *you* the best outcome in the long run.

Consider paying an experienced bk lawyer in your area for legal advice about your best long-term options and whether it makes sense to challenge your dad during his 341 meeting. (You'll have to travel to where he is and/or hire a lawyer there to do that.)

Regretfully you are getting a first-hand 'hard knocks' life lesson in why it is not a good idea to ask a parent, family member, or friend to co-sign or sign loans for assets that are yours. Hang in there and keep us posted about what you find out and decide to do. Good luck!

[Dst1]

Yes, but the key issue here is not who is responsible for the debt but who actually owns the car. Typically they are the same thing but they don't have to be. In other words who legally owns the car and who is responsible for paying the debt on the car are two separate questions.

Certainly the fact that you have possession of the car, have the insurance, etc in your name is powerful evidence that you own the car. But if the finance company thinks he owns the car you may be in for a legal fight with them over ownership.

[kristierenee]

To be honest, I couldn't tell you WHO is listed on the title because I don't have it and the people at the acquisition company are useless when it comes to these questions.

I know all paperwork is listed as a JOINT debt...but other than that, I'm a bit confused.

Capital One has MY name and address for all paperwork (which I'm obviously not getting now thanks to his filing) and the statement comes in BOTH of our names every month.

[Dst1]

I'm a little confused. You say that he is the primary borrower on the note but whose name is on the title? You don't mention this. In my experience if you are making payments on the car you would be the primary borrower and he would be the cosigner. It's rather unusual in the car business for someone to be the primary borrower and not have their name on the title. It certainly isn't normal to require him to be the primary borrower just to "get a better interest rate". I can't help but wonder if the reason the title would be sent to him is because it's his name on the title.

[AngelinaCat]

Okay, I am going to tell you that is time NOW, to leave the house alone and go to bed. You need to get a decent night's sleep.

This matter WILL work itself out. You do know that you have a friendly online family to give *HUGGS* now.

[kristierenee]

I am currently in the process of seeing if I can get them from either the dealership or the finance company. I don't have copies of them at present time...probably got shuffled when I moved 4 years ago. I'm tearing my house apart to find them though.

[AngelinaCat]

I am feeling for you, I really do. You are going to need to get all of your loan papers and anything that your dad might have signed and have them ready.

Okay. Are you able to do that?

[kristierenee]

I'm painfully aware that she does. However, she kept pulling out "he didn't even WANT to include your car" as if she's trying to personally mend a relationship that's broken...and THAT is SO far from my concern right now that I can't even address it.

[AngelinaCat]

Now did you say you had/have an attorney?

so you AND your attorney need to appear at this Creditors Meeting (the 341, that is what they are called) to stand up and object.