Would my girlfriend's income be considered in a BK case?

[GoingDown]

I had a question about the means test for bankruptcy regarding household income. Let's just say I filed for bankruptcy, would they want to know what my girlfriend's income was for the last two years as well? We're not married, and she keeps her money in a separate checking account, but we do live in the same apartment. Would they want to know about all of the things that she owns in the apartment? And how much money she contributes to rent and utilities, etc.?

I know that creditors can't do anything to her or her assets right now, even if they get a judgment against me, but if I filed for bankruptcy, would they be able to take some of her stuff and seize her checking account, etc.?

[StaciMM]

Its a gray area, with the new law. Yes-household income & expenses are to be used, but if you don't have completely mingled finances you might have an arguement for only going by your info.

Its kind of too new to know how it will go...

[Kam]

Well, if you are living with your GF do you both share the expenses? If you pay 50-50 then you can only claim 50% of the living expenses in your petition. If you used her income to obtain a credit card, car loan, etc., then you have to disclose that; otherwise the creditor could come back at you for fraud. Do you put money into her checking account? Do you have a checking acount? If so, does she put money into your checking account? If you put money into her checking account, the Trustee probably would not look favorably upon that and would want to see her bank statements to see how much has been deposited. Anything that you purchased together, i.e., tv, bed, etc., probably has to be listed since you have some "interest" in that as well. Also, something to consider, if you have lived with your GF long enough, some states will consider her your common-law wife. I dunno how that figures into a BK. I know Idaho did away with recognizing common-law marriages several years ago.

Someone else will chime in with better advice

LOL Staci !

[StaciMM]

I didn't know I was being funny. Kam, what did I miss?

(dazed & confused and wishing this work day was over so I could go home & play Sims. Have to get my Sim to finish college so she can get a good job.)

[JimH]

I am going to go out on a limb and say probably not. The means test is based on the "median family income" not "median household income" It might not sound like much of a diference, but it is. If you look at the Census Bureau Data, you are not family - you are a non-family household. Given enough time the bk court will define this down to the last verb and noun. For right now, I don't think anyone really knows how all these variables will be interpreted.

A couple definitions from the Census Bureau;

"A family is a group of two people or more (one of whom is the householder) related by birth, marriage, or adoption and residing together; all such people (including related subfamily members) are considered as members of one family. Beginning with the 1980 Current Population Survey, unrelated subfamilies (referred to in the past as secondary families) are no longer included in the count of families, nor are the members of unrelated subfamilies included in the count of family members. The number of families is equal to the number of family households, however, the count of family members differs from the count of family household members because family household members include any non-relatives living in the household."

"A household consists of all the people who occupy a housing unit. A house, an apartment or other group of rooms, or a single room, is regarded as a housing unit when it is occupied or intended for occupancy as separate living quarters; that is, when the occupants do not live and eat with any other persons in the structure and there is direct access from the outside or through a common hall.
A household includes the related family members and all the unrelated people, if any, such as lodgers, foster children, wards, or employees who share the housing unit. A person living alone in a housing unit, or a group of unrelated people sharing a housing unit such as partners or roomers, is also counted as a household. The count of households excludes group quarters. There are two major categories of households, "family" and "nonfamily"."

[Kam]

Staci, I was going to say that you or Minny, BKFiler, Aaaart or someone else more knowledgeable than me would come along and correct me if I was wrong. I posted, looked up and your post was right before mine

[StaciMM]

Can you tell I'm bored at work these days? Not enough to fill 8 hours/day. W/ my job, some days are more hectic than others and beginning of the week is fairly light.

Bkfiler is trying to make us miss him, I think.

[Kam]

I'd call BKF a turd, but I'm afraid of what he'd put up as an avatar !

[FoolAndHisMoney]

The means test form uses terms like "debtor's spouse", "dependents" "family members", but nothing about girlfriend, boyfriend, significant other, gay lover or anything else I may have left out. I guess since it doesn't mention it, "don't ask, don't tell". If you are asked then you have to tell though.

[GoingDown]

Well, if you are living with your GF do you both share the expenses? If you pay 50-50 then you can only claim 50% of the living expenses in your petition. If you used her income to obtain a credit card, car loan, etc., then you have to disclose that; otherwise the creditor could come back at you for fraud. Do you put money into her checking account? Do you have a checking acount? If so, does she put money into your checking account? If you put money into her checking account, the Trustee probably would not look favorably upon that and would want to see her bank statements to see how much has been deposited. Anything that you purchased together, i.e., tv, bed, etc., probably has to be listed since you have some "interest" in that as well. Also, something to consider, if you have lived with your GF long enough, some states will consider her your common-law wife. I dunno how that figures into a BK. I know Idaho did away with recognizing common-law marriages several years ago.

Someone else will chime in with better advice

LOL Staci !

I have a checking account for cashing checks, but I never keep more than $50 in it. She never puts any money into my checking account, and I never put any money into her checking account. When we pay bills like electricity, cable t.v., rent, etc., we pay them with money orders, and we try to split them as much as possible. She is not a cosigner on any credit card or any car loan, and I didn't use her income in any way to obtain credit.

Most of the furniture, tv's, and household items were bought with my credit cards.

I would have to check on Arizona's common law marriage stuff, but we've only been living together for a little over the past year.

[GoingDown]

The means test form uses terms like "debtor's spouse", "dependents" "family members", but nothing about girlfriend, boyfriend, significant other, gay lover or anything else I may have left out. I guess since it doesn't mention it, "don't ask, don't tell". If you are asked then you have to tell though.

Don't ask, don't tell sounds like it might be the best idea.


The way my logic would work on this is like this... if we can't get the benefits of marriage, such as tax breaks, health benefits, etc., then we shouldn't be treated the same as a married couple in bankruptcy court. Doesn't that make sense?

[GoingDown]

I am going to go out on a limb and say probably not. The means test is based on the "median family income" not "median household income" It might not sound like much of a diference, but it is. If you look at the Census Bureau Data, you are not family - you are a non-family household. Given enough time the bk court will define this down to the last verb and noun. For right now, I don't think anyone really knows how all these variables will be interpreted.

A couple definitions from the Census Bureau;

"A family is a group of two people or more (one of whom is the householder) related by birth, marriage, or adoption and residing together; all such people (including related subfamily members) are considered as members of one family. Beginning with the 1980 Current Population Survey, unrelated subfamilies (referred to in the past as secondary families) are no longer included in the count of families, nor are the members of unrelated subfamilies included in the count of family members. The number of families is equal to the number of family households, however, the count of family members differs from the count of family household members because family household members include any non-relatives living in the household."

"A household consists of all the people who occupy a housing unit. A house, an apartment or other group of rooms, or a single room, is regarded as a housing unit when it is occupied or intended for occupancy as separate living quarters; that is, when the occupants do not live and eat with any other persons in the structure and there is direct access from the outside or through a common hall.
A household includes the related family members and all the unrelated people, if any, such as lodgers, foster children, wards, or employees who share the housing unit. A person living alone in a housing unit, or a group of unrelated people sharing a housing unit such as partners or roomers, is also counted as a household. The count of households excludes group quarters. There are two major categories of households, "family" and "nonfamily"."

Where did you find that info? That something I would quote if it comes to bk and they try to involve her in the bk proceedings.

[JimH]

Don't spend much time on the common law marriage issue. Most every state got away from that in the 80's. Even if it's still part of the code, it's not applied. It's a carryover from the our Puritan roots that has no basis in todays society.

[JimH]

Like I posted before. She is not "family" so not part of "median family income". I would file as either splitting your living costs 50/50 or pro rata - based on the % of each of your incomes - higher wage earner pays greater %.

[JimH]

The definitions are from the Census Bureau Definitions. If the bk court is going to use the census bureau's "median family income" data then I think it's probably a good way to decide what "median family income" means for filing bk.