At 911 time

[Inthestorm]

Going to see attorney on Monday. Meanwhile, there is not enough money to sustain everything and get into a rental home. Is it a bad thing to use the credit cards right now for gas, food, etc.? Would that be fraud since it's so soon before filing?

[Drazil65]

If you know you are going to file or if you are even thinking that it is an option (like going to see attorney to talk about it) then you run the risk of fraud. Do you have a job? Can you sell something to get you by until next payday? Its a tough situation and most of us have been there or are there. Sorry...

[mountanddo]

If you know you are going to file or if you are even thinking that it is an option (like going to see attorney to talk about it) then you run the risk of fraud. Do you have a job? Can you sell something to get you by until next payday? Its a tough situation and most of us have been there or are there. Sorry...

I am not sure I understand this though I've read it severals times on this board. What is the harm in going to see an attorney about your options and using credit cards in the meantime to live vs. someone that doesn't see an attorney but continues to use them. "thinking about filing" doesn't constitute fraud in my eyes as long as you follow the rules about timing. It would be the same as knowing you are going to file Chapter 13 yet purchasing a car to get you through the 5 years. Isn't that person thinking about filing. How is this fraud but that would not be? Yes, at some point you will need to stop using those cards in order to file. A good attorney will advise you on the timing of these things. How would anyone even find out if you went for a free consultation to get information?

[Inthestorm]

I'm trying to understand this also. Don't people file when they reach the end of their resources and can't go on?

I'm severely under-employed and DH is out of work for the month, so we don't have our basic needs covered.

[MSbklawyer]

Incurring debt that you know you're not going to pay back, or that you have no subjective intention of paying back is considered fraudulent, no matter when you do it in relation to your bankruptcy filing. Proving that someone did not intend to pay a debt back is nearly impossible, but incurring debt on the very eve of bankruptcy is evidence (though not conclusive proof) that they never intended to pay that debt back. For some debts, like cash advances and purchases of luxury goods, the bk code creates a presumption of fraudulent intent if they are incurred within a specific timeframe in relation to the filing date.

The car situation is different because it would be paid back in the chapter 13.

[mountanddo]

So as long as the OP waits some time they will be ok. More so if they don't take cash advances or purchase a 32" TV next week. I would say do what you have to do to get into something you can rent because after BK you will have a hard time getting a lease...from what I've read.

[AngelinaCatHub]

So as long as the OP waits some time they will be ok. More so if they don't take cash advances or purchase a 32" TV next week. I would say do what you have to do to get into something you can rent because after BK you will have a hard time getting a lease...from what I've read.

As Des said, ANYTIME that you incur debt with the idea that you can drop it in BK is FRAUD, plain and simple. You may get away with it, but you have to live with the fact that you did not do the right thing. Putting yourself into BK is one thing, but "Constructive Bankruptcy" is illegal. It IS fraud. 'Hub

[MSbklawyer]

So as long as the OP waits some time they will be ok. More so if they don't take cash advances or purchase a 32" TV next week. I would say do what you have to do to get into something you can rent because after BK you will have a hard time getting a lease...from what I've read.

Yes, the more time that elapses between the new charges and the filing of the bankruptcy, the better. But they definitely don't want to be in that 90 day / 70 day period for luxury goods / cash advances.

But, worst case scenario, if the debtor does make these credit card charges and someone bothers to object to their discharge, it only means that those particular charges won't be dischargeable. It doesn't mean that they are ineligible for bankruptcy or that the entire credit card account is non-dischargeable.

Going beyond the OP's original question a bit, though: If credit cards are being used to meet day-to-day expenses because there isn't enough money, there is a deeper problem that needs to be dealt with that bankruptcy won't fix. The OP needs to be careful not to get back on the same financial road that brought him to this point.

[Inthestorm]

For one thing, an expensive prescription needs to be refilled. How could that be fraud if one has exhausted all resources?

[jst4f]

Going to see attorney on Monday. Meanwhile, there is not enough money to sustain everything and get into a rental home. Is it a bad thing to use the credit cards right now for gas, food, etc.? Would that be fraud since it's so soon before filing?

I need a little more information. Are you still paying your cc? Are you in a home now and if so is it in active foreclosure? If you are still paying your cc and you are paying a mortgage, then stop and save the money to live on and for an lawyer.

[Inthestorm]

Yes, we are in a home but have stopped making payment. Do need to keep the utilities going plus gas, food, etc. and DH is out of work.

[mountanddo]

I guess you do what you have to do to survive and as long as you follow all the legal rules of BK you will be fine.

[AngelinaCatHub]

For one thing, an expensive prescription needs to be refilled. How could that be fraud if one has exhausted all resources?

It is by the "LETTER OF THE LAW" not the intent of your problem. It is simple as that, ask Des. The law is clear, the "loan" by means of a CC is still not your money, and intent not to pay it back is fraudulent. I suggest calling the vendor of the medicine as they at times have a way of helping you pay for it. If you have a Church connection that may help also. There are government agencies to help also. Bite your pride and use the resources set up for this type of thing. You are not the first in this situation. It will get better, but don't bring yourself down doing wrongly.

Yes, we are in a home but have stopped making payment. Do need to keep the utilities going plus gas, food, etc. and DH is out of work.

Soon if you have stopped paying on those cards they will be cut off. Then you must plan for that, so consider it has happened and do not abuse the system.

I guess you do what you have to do to survive and as long as you follow all the legal rules of BK you will be fine.

Your comment has mixed signals. You do NOT do what you have to do to survive if it impinges upon others. Even a CC is "others". If the OP follows the rules she will not do the wrong thing. The "means do not justify the ends".

I'm not being hard, as what Des said before, you must adjust to the new start in life now as the temporary income will be cut off soon. Then if an audit were to occur, the person could have more trouble. The most successful and easy bk's have been by total honesty and open information. Believe me we made every mistake you could make yet not be dismissed. A real miracle. 'Hub

[mountanddo]

Your comment has mixed signals. You do NOT do what you have to do to survive if it impinges upon others. Even a CC is "others". If the OP follows the rules she will not do the wrong thing. The "means do not justify the ends".

I am not sending mixed signals. The OP didn't say I am going to file bankruptcy on Monday. She simply said she was going to see a BK attorney. I never advised her to go rack up all her credit cards on luxury items and then file the next day. It might be possible that DH finds a job tomorrow and then they won't have to worry about it and they can continue to pay on their CC and catch up on their mortgage. All I said was to be sure that they are following the rules of the bankruptcy code, legally. Nothing morally wrong about that. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one....or at least I will

[shark66]

But, worst case scenario, if the debtor does make these credit card charges and someone bothers to object to their discharge, it only means that those particular charges won't be dischargeable. It doesn't mean that they are ineligible for bankruptcy or that the entire credit card account is non-dischargeable.

In my book, the key for understanding and weighing the risk against possible charges of fraud are sustained in the above paragraph.

Going beyond the OP's original question a bit, though: If credit cards are being used to meet day-to-day expenses because there isn't enough money, there is a deeper problem that needs to be dealt with that bankruptcy won't fix. The OP needs to be careful not to get back on the same financial road that brought him to this point.

Words of wisdom. Right here, right now.

Good luck to us all.