Homeowner insurance question in light of BK & foreclosure

[tobee43]

I wanted to share a frustrating update to this crazy mess.

My house has been out of foreclosure since around March. For unknown reasons (actually I have some guesses as to why), Chase (my bank)'s lawyers filed with the court to "vacate" the foreclosure judgment against me and close the foreclosure case. So as of then I no longer had to have a daily watch checking my county's website for upcoming foreclosure sheriff sales - instead they would have to go back and restart the whole process, file in court again to get a foreclosure judgment - and who knows how long all that would take.

However in the meantime since I have been working again since last December and slowly getting back on my feet, I applied for a mortgage modification through the HAMP program and was approved! I passed through the trial period and am now in what is known as a "permanent loan modification". My mortgage is not technically even delinquent anymore. Of course that in itself is a long story I won't go into (their income calculations are wrong and the new monthly payments are about 38% of my monthly gross instead of 31% as per HAMP rules but I am managing to make ends meet with mega-OT, and trying to get a better job but I digress).

So with this now behind me, I would have thought the bank's "your house is vacant" type of threats were over. Not so. My home insurance company just contacted me & said that Chase had contacted them to notify them that my house is vacant and that they have to cancel my policy unless I can prove I live here. Unbelievable. I called Chase & raised holy hell, and also told my insurance agent that Chase needs to correct this - not me "proving" I live here. At this point my policy could actually get canceled as the agent told me he can't control what will happen next because it is up to the insurance company's "underwriter" what to do.

I would like to know if that happens (my policy getting canceled because Chase has screwed up YET AGAIN) can I SUE THEM and how?????? I am so fed up with their numerous mistakes and b.s.

ahhhhhhhhhh Chase, my favorite and also they are the one's that hold my property which they haven't even attempted to foreclose on in over 4.5 years. in the state we own the property and most likely the same with yours a home owners insurance company will only insure if "owner" occupied. you can easily ask the insurance company what they would consider "proof"...an electric bill, a gas bill, phone bill....TAX bill?? what do they EXACTLY need as proof, i'm certain you can fax them something. don't count on Chase to do anything, i have never seen such incompetence, well, i take that back, i have seen that much incompetence, it was when all the large companies let all the experience people go and put these types in these jobs that all don't know what they are doing.

another suggestion i have, is don't call Chase, go in, as much as that hurts go face to face and straighten it out.

wish we can all sue Chase....unfortunately, it comes time to pick our battles and stop picking our pockets dry for legal fees trying to fight the banks. they will win, no matter.

best of luck, i'm certain it will work out!

[keepsmiling]

I have found 3-way conferencing helpful at times.

[ValleYum]

A utility bill in your name at the property's address is what my insurance company required. It was also a requirement on the loan mods we attempted as they wanted to make sure we were living at the property at that time. Sorry for all your troubles, Kev. Geesh!

[keepsmiling]

Oh and I always like the idea of bringing it to the local news. People love to hear about big banks screwing people.

[keepsmiling]

I would talk to someone at the top both places-- in person preferably---and also seriously consider suing Chase.
I know they have deep pockets and it could be a losing battle, but it might get their attention.
Your story would make a good movie of the week. Hope you get a book deal out of it at least

[KevFinnerty]

I wanted to share a frustrating update to this crazy mess.

My house has been out of foreclosure since around March. For unknown reasons (actually I have some guesses as to why), Chase (my bank)'s lawyers filed with the court to "vacate" the foreclosure judgment against me and close the foreclosure case. So as of then I no longer had to have a daily watch checking my county's website for upcoming foreclosure sheriff sales - instead they would have to go back and restart the whole process, file in court again to get a foreclosure judgment - and who knows how long all that would take.

However in the meantime since I have been working again since last December and slowly getting back on my feet, I applied for a mortgage modification through the HAMP program and was approved! I passed through the trial period and am now in what is known as a "permanent loan modification". My mortgage is not technically even delinquent anymore. Of course that in itself is a long story I won't go into (their income calculations are wrong and the new monthly payments are about 38% of my monthly gross instead of 31% as per HAMP rules but I am managing to make ends meet with mega-OT, and trying to get a better job but I digress).

So with this now behind me, I would have thought the bank's "your house is vacant" type of threats were over. Not so. My home insurance company just contacted me & said that Chase had contacted them to notify them that my house is vacant and that they have to cancel my policy unless I can prove I live here. Unbelievable. I called Chase & raised holy hell, and also told my insurance agent that Chase needs to correct this - not me "proving" I live here. At this point my policy could actually get canceled as the agent told me he can't control what will happen next because it is up to the insurance company's "underwriter" what to do.

I would like to know if that happens (my policy getting canceled because Chase has screwed up YET AGAIN) can I SUE THEM and how?????? I am so fed up with their numerous mistakes and b.s.

[KevFinnerty]

Interesting story. Good for them. I doubt there are many positive home owner type stories like that though; although I'm sure they went through a tremendous amount of hassle.

As far as my case goes I don't have any updates. I haven't noticed any snoops in June although they could have been here unknown to me. No neighbors have stopped by to tell me anything weird going on. Have not had further communications from the bank.

I'm still just kind of holding my breath to see what happens next. I live in a perpetual state of unreal stress & depression with all that is going on with me, just trying to ignore the bk & foreclosure worries as best I can, struggling to survive, trying to get a job while I am still living here instead of waiting until I moved which is what I had originally planned on.

Hope things are OK on your end.

[housepoor10]

Kevin,

Any updates on the snoops?
I found this today, and thought you would like it. Food for thought in case something does happen.

Wells Fargo commenced a foreclosure action on a New York Homeowner. The homeowner notified Wells Fargo that, although he had discontinued utility services and winterized and secured the dwelling, he had not abandoned it.

He visited the property regularly and had a neighbor watch it in his absence. After Wells Fargo found the front door of the home open, it had the locks changed, and secured and winterized it.

The homeowner claimed that damage was caused to the home and various items of personal property were taken. The mortgage stated that the lender could enter and inspect the property in a reasonable manner and at reasonable times on notice.

However, there was no indication that notice to the homeowner was provided by Wells Fargo. The mortgage also stated that if the property was abandoned, Wells Fargo could secure and repair the property, including changing the locks.

The New York Supreme Court, Suffolk County held that Wells Fargo had committed a trespass and awarded the homeowner $200 in damages for the trespass, $4,982 for the value of the personal property that was lost and $150,000 for punitive damages.

Sweet Justice there!!!

[KevFinnerty]

Thanks housepoor. Good luck again with your situation.

As of today my insurance is NOT canceled. The rep cleared up the mess with the underwriter as of today. I asked for confirmation of "not being canceled" in writing and he said I would be getting some kind of "not canceled" notification so I guess I will just wait for that next.

I did ask him (again) who notified the insurance company that the house was vacant and he said he did not know, but that by all logic it had to be the bank. However he/the insurance company will not get involved in this any further than that. They will not go back to whoever "notified" them and tell them "no you're wrong" etc.

I do leave my front blinds open during the day in the kitchen, as well as upstairs. There isn't anything valuable exposed, unless they are interested in stealing my dirty dishes in the kitchen sink, or climbing up a ladder to peer into my bedroom. Leaving those open during the day reinforces that my house IS NOT VACANT and I intend to keep doing that.

As far as your idea about putting a note up on the front door, I am not comfortable with that. I think that accomplishes nothing since in theory a house could be vacant but the owner could put a note up to say its not so the snoopers are probably trained to ignore something like that no matter what you put in a note, and in my case, with a townhouse and neighbors all over in close proximity that kind of note would attract attention that I do NOT want (from my neighbors, delivery men, meter readers, people I know coming over, etc). I do NOT want to be part of the neighborhood gossip mill - "oh my god did you see that Mr. so & so has a note on his door saying his house isn't vacant, he must be facing foreclosure!!!" etc.

As far as calling the bank atty's I think that is a bad idea. I want no contact with them at all outside of a courtroom or something my atty would communicate with them in legalese.

I think posting no trespassing signs is a great idea, but in my case I am not allowed to do that because of homeowner association regulations. I do have a video camera recording all day anything that happens at the front of my house though. Small comfort if they break in and change the locks though. I'm definitely paranoid about it even though it SHOULDN'T happen. Every time I go out for whatever reason I look all around the street & the neighborhood to see if some strange car is hanging around, perhaps waiting for me to leave so they can "secure" the property. If I had to go away for a couple days I would be sick with worry wondering what might happen in my absence.

[housepoor10]

Sounds like an insurance nightmare for sure. I would stay on top of the ins co, and if you contact your local agent, they should be able to contact the main office that got the cancellation notice and fix it. I would insist they do something. I am sure the bank is the one that told them it is vacant, because they are the ones paying thru escrow. No one else would be able to give that kind of information. So the bank is lying. Also the property preservation people lied as well. Do you leave curtains/windows open so people can see in, especially when not home? I would not do that any longer. I know, it seems weird, but them being able to look in and "see" what you have that they may want to come in and take is not good.

As for the camera idea, yes, may be egging them on, but also if something happens, a great defense againts the property preservation company, allowing people to get away with this nonsense. Also, it may be a good idea to tape a note on the door, stating that your property is "currently" owner occupied, and the locks are not to be changed. It may be a good idea for you to post it, and take picture of it. When they do a lock change, they are supposed to leave a number to call. The problem is, they eventually get a key to you, but not that minute.....I understand sometimes a few days, and during that time, that is usually when the vandalism of the Hired Thugs takes place. Tomorrow, I would call the ins co, insist they uncancel, call the bank and make sure they know you are there, and ask them who told them you vacated and why? Next, find out the banks attorneys name as well, and also contact them and go over the same with them. You are not there illegally, and they should not be doing this to you. I leave a porch light on at night, turn off during the day. I do not leave any curtains open ever. Lawn is mowed. Every week. The thing is, if they do cancel your ins and place their own, your contents will NOT be insured in the event of loss. Since you are there, you should be able to have it. If indeed the escrow went negative, maybe that is the reason they are doing it. They still have to maintain the property taxes if they want to be first in line for the payout after a sale. Actually, this all seems weird, as they have not even served you with foreclosure papers yet. Also, until the sale, you need to continue to pay the HOA fees, that will follow you until its all over. If you are unable to pay, the HOA, more than likely will come after you for it. I would not pay the homeowners ins out of my own pocket though, maybe they are trying to get you to. That is just me though. I am so over this baloney too, it is not even funny! Makes me want to catch someone over here in the act of something and kick their A--. Its like who do they think they are pulling this on people having problems? Unreal. I never would have imagined things would be this way, but they are, and you have to deal with garbage at every turn. I am considering getting no tresspassing signs as well.

[KevFinnerty]

Kev, also, the bank notified the ins co and told them it was vacant due to the fact that they are probably not going to pay the ins, but will go ahead, as DEBEE posted above and force place their own policy on the dwelling alone, and not the contents. Also, whether your escrow account goes in the negative or not, your bank will more than likely continue to pay the property taxes, as if they do not the county can put a lien on the home. The bank does not want to "give up" their rights to being first in line for their share of the pot once the property sells, and if they do not continue to keep the property taxes current, they will not be first in line if a lien is put on the home. Further, the property taxes go with the home, and are NOT something for you to be concerned about. The reason the bank told the ins co its vacant, is that they knew the ins was up and they did not intend to renew the policy. More than likely they can get it cheaper. They will "try" to get you to pay for forced ins, but remember the BK, and tell them to stick it. And call the ins co and be sure the "refund" from any time left on the policy gets mailed back to you, because it is my understanding that is is yours, and from the sound of things I am sure you could use the money. Good Day!!
"

Thanks for the info about the property taxes.

The thing with my property insurance though is not what you said - they PAID the insurance. What is happening is totally effed up.

My insurance was due to expire the end of May. I contacted my insurance agent in April and told him what was going on and asked him if the bank had renewed it yet or not (they get the bill the end of April every year & are supposed to pay out of my escrow fund). He said he'd keep an eye out and let me know what happens. But I figured if they didn't pay, it was no big deal, as mentioned in this thread - that it isn't something for me to worry about. If they don't renew it, then they'll just have to get some other kind of policy - not me. I'll get renter's insurance if I want to (or not).

However what happened next was that the insurance agent called me and told me on Thursday (or maybe it was Wed) that he received word from the insurance underwriter/head office that my policy was being CANCELED. Not "not renewed". But CANCELLED. HE VERIFIED THAT THE BANK DID PAID THE PREMIUM TO RENEW IT. But someone unknown "notified" the insurance company that the property was "vacant". And they will not insure a "vacant" property. So they will cancel the policy effective next month.

I explained the situation to my agent yet again. He was supposed to speak with the underwriter's office or whoever. I am waiting to see what happens with that.

In the meantime just yesterday I received in the mail an official notice from my insurance company about my policy being canceled because the property is "not owner occupied". Supposedly I can become "eligible for coverage if I occupy the dwelling". What a bunch of ridiculous circular hooey. WHO TOLD MY INSURANCE COMPANY THAT THE OWNER NO LONGER LIVES HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE??????? This is all designed to drive me out in my opinion, give the bank an excuse to break in. Kick off some kind of other unknown hellish type of harassment.

The letter from the insurance company says I have the right of appeal to some kind of state insurance commissioner, within ten days. Of course the letter isn't dated so I have no idea when the clock even started running on that. I will have to call my insurance agent yet again on Monday and ask him to give me an update. Because if he cannot confirm that they acknowledge that they know I AM living here, and that they are NOT going to cancel the policy, then I guess I need to file this appeal thing asap.

However it also crossed my mind that perhaps them canceling the policy is a good thing. That will just make things more difficult for the bank - they will have to then get another policy. And I will be the one getting the refund for the canceled policy - NOT THEM. And I could really use that $.

So I am not sure what I am going to do, although I am leaning towards doing everything I can to try to keep the policy from getting canceled, just for the sake of trying to be a normal homeowner, as if I'm not caught up in all this horrible hell that I am in. But if this situation "the property is vacant" nonsense continues on this path of being so screwed up that I cannot get it corrected I will look at it as a silver lining in that the insurance co. will have to give the premium $$, which had been held by the bank in escrow.


Good luck to you with your own situation. Let's keep posting and compare notes.

[KevFinnerty]

Thanks for your reply.

You said a couple things I want to comment on/answer.

And in my research, I did find out that this company only changes one of the doors, not both, or all of them. So if you come home one day and the lock to the front door has been changed and a lockbox put on it, go around to one of the other doors and try it.

I live in a townhouse and there is only one door. If I come home and these thugs have broken and changed the locks (and probably also looted the place) I am really really screwed. How the hell am I supposed to get back in if that happens? I won't even know who to call and scream at. So now I have to worry about being sure to carry phone numbers in my wallet for the bank's property division, my lawyer (who is only representing me in my bk case, not the foreclosure), a locksmith, etc?? This is absolutely nuts (and terrifying at the same time).

Does your home always look occupied, lawn mowed, etc...?

Yes. Being a townhouse with a homeowner's association, the lawn is mowed once a week by contractors. So nothing goes to pot. My house does look a bit stark because I don't have bushes & such all over the place in my front lawn though, like all my neighbors (there is a reason for that I won't go into).

This reminds me of something ridiculous the bank said when I first called after the initial "we have been notified that your property is vacant" etc letter. The guy I spoke to advised me to "keep an outside light on" to make the house look occupied. How in the HELL does that make a house look occupied? It actually does JUST THE OPPOSITE. A light burning during the day?? What an idiot. I told him but leaving a light on during the day just makes it look like no one is home to turn the light OFF, don't you think??? He just said something like, "uh, oh, yeah".

What I plan to do next time I see one is to take my camera, go outside, say nothing to them, take a picture of their car with license number, and also a picture of them. And then ask them to leave. Since you have their photo/plate, I bet they will comply! I cannot wait till the next looser shows up here.......then when something goes missing/break in, you have this jerks info! Two can play at this game!

Maybe that is a good idea, but maybe it isn't. I really want no contact with these thugs at all. Perhaps if you ruffle their feathers that will just want them to find excuses to eff with you, vandalizing something, keep coming back at all hours, whatever. I'd rather they just come, take photos, peer in the windows, and get the hell out and not even know what I look like.

[housepoor10]

Kev, also, the bank notified the ins co and told them it was vacant due to the fact that they are probably not going to pay the ins, but will go ahead, as DEBEE posted above and force place their own policy on the dwelling alone, and not the contents. Also, whether your escrow account goes in the negative or not, your bank will more than likely continue to pay the property taxes, as if they do not the county can put a lien on the home. The bank does not want to "give up" their rights to being first in line for their share of the pot once the property sells, and if they do not continue to keep the property taxes current, they will not be first in line if a lien is put on the home. Further, the property taxes go with the home, and are NOT something for you to be concerned about. The reason the bank told the ins co its vacant, is that they knew the ins was up and they did not intend to renew the policy. More than likely they can get it cheaper. They will "try" to get you to pay for forced ins, but remember the BK, and tell them to stick it. And call the ins co and be sure the "refund" from any time left on the policy gets mailed back to you, because it is my understanding that is is yours, and from the sound of things I am sure you could use the money. Good Day!!
"

[housepoor10]

Kevin, it gets better! I forgot to mention, the property preservation people at the bank said the company they hired, Safeguard, hires a "third party" to do these "so called" property checks! I then asked who they are (give me a name). The bank told me they are "not allowed to know" any identifying in formation about these lunes. Well I know the reason why......when the time comes that Joe Doaks property preservation checker decides to " case the place" and then come in and take something of yours of value, or instruct one of their THUG friends to do so, the banks defense is "we know nothing". So it would wind up being between you and the property preservation company to get to the bottom of it. I am currently dealing with the same situation over here. Once a month, whether I like it or not, some Joe Doaks shows up with a camera, and I have seen a couple of different ones, walks around the house taking pictures of the house, etc. I guess that is there "record" of whether they think you occupy or not. They do not knock on my door, just the walky take pictures thing. Gives me the creeps. Now, my issue is what backgound checking is done on these loosers? Not much I am sure. Why not just knock on the damn door?

Anyway, I guess the only thing you can do is send the bank a certified letter that if they continue to insist your home is vacant when it is not, and if something like getting locked out happens, then there will be a lawsuit. They do have to tell you the name of the company doing these so called checks, and you could send them one as well. You are well within your rights to be there until after the sheriff sale, and your name is removed from the title.

And in my research, I did find out that this company only changes one of the doors, not both, or all of them. So if you come home one day and the lock to the front door has been changed and a lockbox put on it, go around to one of the other doors and try it. Also, if that happens, they will tell you you cannot break in. That is a lie, due to the fact that your name is still on title. You also can put up no tresspassing signs, and then I imagine their "inspection" would have to be done from the street view only......not sure though. Does your home always look occupied, lawn mowed, etc...? I try to do my best here, and mine has not been reported vacant yet. I truly believe if the banks want to "mess with you" they will do that, and try to rile you up to get you to pay them or something. As for the visits, they are instructed to do them every 30 days or so, and this starts soon after you begin to default in payment. My bank said it has nothing to do with the property being vacant, they are just making sure it is not vacant. My problem is with the company they hire to do this, and the "track record" of thefts due to these Thugs, and the lack of background checks, who knows WHO is coming around to check out the place..........yes, it is very irritating to say the least, but hold your ground, do not let them make you leave until you are ready to go. What I plan to do next time I see one is to take my camera, go outside, say nothing to them, take a picture of their car with license number, and also a picture of them. And then ask them to leave. Since you have their photo/plate, I bet they will comply! I cannot wait till the next looser shows up here.......then when something goes missing/break in, you have this jerks info! Two can play at this game!

[KevFinnerty]

Kevin, you can contact your banks property preservation dept. they should be able to tell you the date they were informed of such and why. Usually what they do, (the property people that show up) come over walk around the yard, look in windows if they can see in, check utility meters to see if they are still running, look for signs of the lawn being taken care of. They can be misled by a neighbor I am sure. I would also be sure that you take care of the yard, and never, never leave curtains open where they can see in. Also, turn on the porch lights at night.......these people have been known to change locks, have another extra truck pull up and take peoples things worth anything, then after they remove what they want, take a photograph and tell the bank "this is how we found it". If you do not believe me, just google safeguard property preservation complaints, and you will see an eyefull. this is just one of the companies that banks hire to check on people, they are nothing but a band of thieves......so be very careful. Also do not expect to get straight answers from the banks property preservation, but they should tell you how and why the property was reported as vacant. If you have to, notify them via certified mail of your still being in the property, and want no funny business.......all sorts of things are happening in this regard, and it is every man for himself. The bank is supposed to "order" the lockout, so make sure they know you are still in there.......

Sigh - that is very scary. Thanks for your reply.

I already DID contact my bank's property recovery division or whatever they are called (they sent me a letter threatening to take steps of securing my property if I did not reply in 8 days since they were notified that the property is vacant etc). I have spoken to them on the phone 3 times already plus sent them a letter.

I told them my house is not vacant and that I live here. [They said "no problem we will update our records", yet 3 weeks later they sent someone snooping around who talked to my neighbors!!!!]

I told them to stop sending people snooping around. [They said, "we have to do this every 30 days because your mortgage is a FreddieMac mortgage and this is one of their regulations that we have to follow once we are notified that your property is vacant"]

I've told them to stop talking to my neighbors, that one of them thought their "investigator" was extremely suspicious looking and he was going to call the cops if that person came around again [They said they will "make a note to tell the investigator not to bother the neighbors"]

I asked them WHO "notified" them that my property was vacant in the first place, kicking off these annoying return visits that they supposedly must do as a followup to that "notification", and their answer was a circular one of "our investigator originally visited the property and could not determine that the house was not vacant thus that means we were notified the property IS vacant". So the people who tell the bank that the property is vacant are the same people that the bank then says they have the right to send back to the property every month to check if the property is vacant since they were originally told by these people that the property is vacant despite my replying to the banks threats and confirming that it is NOT vacant in the friggin first place!


Is there some recommended course of action I can take in a letter to the bank to protect myself from these people breaking into my house/changing the locks like you are saying?? I can easily see the bank issuing this type of order "by mistake" then getting away with it afterwards with basically no recourse on my part.

If I see these people on my property can I tell them to leave? Can I call the cops? Can I get out my WWII rifle and in my best Clint Eastwood imitation snarl at them to "GET OFF MY LAWN" and then shoot them in the nuts if they don't comply?