My "pro se" Chapter 7-Any and All Help Appreciated-Eastern District of Michigan

[OldandPoor]

I would like to give thanks for any and all help I my might receive here.

I am going to file my Chapter 7 in the next week or so. I have been reading and researching but as I go through this I am going to have questions. I figure a thread to document my progress and provide answers to what might be considered very basic questions. Maybe having all this stuff in one place can help someone else down the road.

My situation is that I currently have no income for the last 8 months and my only assets are 2 paid for cars worth about 15K. I also have some clothes. I do get SNAP benefits. Nothing else.

I am going to file “pro se” since I don't have any money. I am going to ask for a fee waiver and hope it comes through if not I hope they will let me make payments.

As mentioned in the title I am filing in the Eastern District of Michigan.

I am planning to file these forms to start

Voluntary Petition (Form 101)
Application to Have the Chapter 7 Filing Fee Waived (Form 103B)
Certificate of Credit Counseling
Bankruptcy Petition Cover Sheet (Local Form)
Statement About Your Social Security Numbers (Form 121)
List of Creditors ( Mailing Matrix)


This will get the ball rolling!

My questions

1. Filing-The court (Eastern District of Michigan) does give you the ability to upload documents. I can't find anywhere on the site about what documents I can upload.
Does anyone know how it works? I really don't want to go to downtown Detroit to the court if I don't have to. There will not be any money changing hands when I file.
Should I just upload my documents and see what happens?

2. If I can and do upload them should my signature be
/s/ First Middle Last
If I have to physically go file then I should just sign right?
When I upload subsequent documents should I then use /s/ First Middle Last

3. List of Creditors-I found a document on the courts site that says “The List of Creditors shall be typed in one of the following types: (a) Courier 10; (b) Prestige Elite or (c) Letter Gothic
None of these fonts are available in Open Office which is what I have. Is there a different font I can use? I can't find anything else regarding fonts on the website.
Can anyone give me an idea where to go here, I tried to call the court but never was able to even get the option for a person or to leave a message (I wanted to ask about the initial fling). I did get hung up on a lot. I do understand this is a feature (not a bug) in many government systems designed to serve the public.
Should I just run with Times New Roman? Any suggestions?

4. List of Creditors-I have not made any payments or done anything with my accounts since 12-2022. Some have been moved from the original creditor into collections. Should I be adding the original on this list anyway? Would it hurt anything?

5. It looks like the files for upload have to be .pdf anybody know of a good free converter?

I think that is all I have at the moment.
I look forward to any help and/or insight.

Thanks

Dan

[justbroke]

I am planning to file these forms to start

Voluntary Petition (Form 101)
Application to Have the Chapter 7 Filing Fee Waived (Form 103B)
Certificate of Credit Counseling
Bankruptcy Petition Cover Sheet (Local Form)
Statement About Your Social Security Numbers (Form 121)
List of Creditors ( Mailing Matrix)

Personally, I would contact the Clerk of the Bankruptcy court for MIED and ask what constitutes an emergency (skeleton) filing. You do realize that what you suggest filing is not a complete petition? It would be considered an emergency petition. Do you really have an emergency -- like a foreclosure -- that needs to be stopped within the next 7-14 days? Otherwise you should file a complete petition and not a skeleton. I can tell you personally that many Pro Se fail because they file piecemeal and do not follow the bankruptcy rules.

1. Filing-The court (Eastern District of Michigan) does give you the ability to upload documents. I can't find anywhere on the site about what documents I can upload.

Does anyone know how it works? I really don't want to go to downtown Detroit to the court if I don't have to. There will not be any money changing hands when I file.
Should I just upload my documents and see what happens?

Some districts allow Pro Se to use CM/ECF (PACER) to upload. I don't know if that's mandatory for MIED or you want to go downtown. You can always call the Clerk of the Bankruptcy Court.

2. If I can and do upload them should my signature be
/s/ First Middle Last
If I have to physically go file then I should just sign right?
When I upload subsequent documents should I then use /s/ First Middle Last

As a Pro Se, it is likely you must physically sign each document that requires a signature. Definitely contact the clerk of the court.

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=20px]3. List of Creditors-I found a document on the courts site that says “The List of Creditors shall be typed in one of the following types: ...

Should I just run with Times New Roman? Any suggestions?

Most people always Times New Roman and 12pt for the size.

4. List of Creditors-I have not made any payments or done anything with my accounts since 12-2022. Some have been moved from the original creditor into collections. Should I be adding the original on this list anyway? Would it hurt anything?

List every creditor that you know because you are required to list every creditor.

5. It looks like the files for upload have to be .pdf anybody know of a good free converter?

I use Acrobat but pay $19.99/month. They have a free 7 day trial.

[OldandPoor]

Thanks for the reply!

I am not in a rush I just wanted more time to work on the rest of it but get the ball rolling so the creditors will be notified. I think based on emails and notices left on my door a few might be thinking about court.

I would have 14 days to file the rest and was assuming that even if I had to go in person once, the rest of the stuff then could be done (uploaded) at my convenience. When I called the number listed I don't remember an option for the clerk but then again I was not looking for the clerk. They also have a Pro Se Law Clerk that is listed. I think I remember hearing that option. I will call today and see what I find out. The clerk is the manager of the court for most purposes right?

I really just want to avoid going there until my face to face. Its downtown. parking sux (and costs). If I can't do anything online and have to do it all in person it will indeed be a one time shot. I asked about the signature thing because I am seeing it when looking at filed cases. Is that maybe a special thing that only lawyers can do?

If I can speak with a person when I call that would be a start. I spent over 90 minutes the other day letting it cycle through menus knowing (assuming) I would never get a live person. Now, I should at least be able to leave a message and hope for a return call. Any idea on the odds my first message will generate a return call? I am a pessimist and this is Detroit, I would bet it will take more than one message!

I'll leave an update after I call. I will wait an appropriate time before calling again. If no aproximation of wait time is on the VM I was thinking to give it three days.

Thanks

Dan

[justbroke]

For MIEB it seems that have a Pro Se law clerk that specifically deals with Pro Se debtors. If MIEB still allows uploads for Pro Se debtors outside CM/ECF, then you should contact the Pro Se law clerk to make sure they still allow that. It appears that was a convenience option during COVID-19. I can't say whether they still allow that. Do you know that you can also overnight them? I used overnight service for many things, but I would always want to file in person. If the clerk's office is not busy it takes less than 15 minutes.

[MyAZLawyers]

Filing for Chapter 7 "pro se" can be a challenging process, but it’s great that you’re documenting your journey. Regarding your first question about uploading documents, it’s always best to follow the court’s specific guidelines, so I would recommend reviewing the local court rules or instructions on the website. Many courts do allow document uploads for convenience, but you should check if there are any specific document types required for uploading. As for signing documents, when uploading, using the /s/ signature format is common for electronic filings. If you’re filing in person, a physical signature is necessary.

[OldandPoor]

I tried the Pro Se clerk's office today, when I hit 1 to leave a message it hung up on me (shocking I know). Their message did however provide another phone number on which I was able to leave a message. It said they would try to get back to me in 24 hours (not holding my breath on that). I will give until Thursday for a return call then try again.

I tried a couple other menu options but was getting nowhere near a person. I remember reading an article about the Florida Unemployment Office installing a new system which they later admitted was designed not to work well as a certain percentage of people would just give up and not file. The system was put in place by Rick Scott in 2013 and the problems really came light during Covid. Here is a link

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article249702448.html

I can imagine some of the calls this court gets probably makes the unemployment call questions seem like a walk in the park.

Overnighting is not an option unless it is cheaper than parking if I have to go. I did find that you CAN pay online (contradicting info I found elsewhere on the site. "Payment of court fees (including filing fees and installment payments, copies, recordings of hearings, etc.) may be paid online via debit card, PayPal, or ACH (electronic payment from a bank account)"
It specifically mentions filing fees and installment payments so I have hopes of only one trip downtown for the meeting.

Does anyone know how the /s/ thing works? Is it for lawyers only?

I'll let you know when (if) I hear back.

[justbroke]

You can only use /s/ if the court allows it. Attorney use /s/ on penalty of losing their license (or being sanctioned). For we mere mortals, the courts have generally required a "wet" signature on all forms posted by a Pro Se (unrepresented) debtor. This means sign the forms, scan them, and then upload, along with mailing the physical "wet" signature (in blue ink) to the court.

You will need to seek help from the local Pro Se Clerk for specific procedures for those not represented.

[OldandPoor]

I spoke with a person in the Pro Se clerks office today. She called me

[justbroke]

I spoke with a person in the Pro Se clerks office today. She called me

Very good. You can ask them procedural questions but not legal questions. They should be able to guide you through the process itself as a Pro Se.

[OldandPoor]

Thanks, I was not finished!

I spoke with a person in the Pro Se clerks office today. She called me back just before noon (less than 24 hours since my message). She was very helpful and seemed interested in some of the discrepancies (for lack of a better term) on the website. She was able to answer my questions for the most part and was very helpful! She also referred me to the CM/ECF help desk for questions regarding online filing. I almost fell over when a person answered the phone as based on other menu selections I have tried that just does not happen.

I was able to get my questions answered:

1. Everything can be filed on line. There is another area on the site where you can pay the fee using a debit card, PayPal, or with an AHC transaction. I do not have to go down there to file to get started. My confusion was thinking that where I would be uploading documents was different than the CM/ECF system. Apparently, that is the CM/ECF for Pro Se filers. When I heard the option for CM/ECF help I assumed that was for lawyers only that is not the case.
They also explained that once I sign up the Debtor Electronic Bankruptcy Noticing (DeBN) system that I will get same day notices via email rather than waiting for the paper mail. On the site it says to file with the clerks office then it sends me to the phone number page of the court (and since it defaults alphabetically it sends me to the Bay City page instead of Detroit). There is no other info so that will be something I will ask about if I call again before the initial filing. As of now I plan on including it with my petition and the other initial stuff. They were both telling me if something is not accepted that I WILL be notified promptly. I will get that form added to my filing list on my first post.

2. They both confirmed I can use /s/ First Middle Last as my signature for any documents I upload. They did confirm a regular signature is required to file in person.

3. Regarding the font-I was told to use a normal font (probably whatever I am using here is fine). I was told they have never heard of anyone having it kicked back due to a font issue, but I would be notified with the option to correct if it happened.

4. List of Creditors-She told me the more the merrier. Don't worry about listing more than one creditor for the same account if you have the info.
I also asked about what to do if I do not have complete (or any) account numbers for some of these accounts when I have to list them on Schedule E/F: Creditors Who Have Unsecured Claims. The credit reports I have gotten appear to list partial not complete account numbers. I was told to file what I have and they will let me know if they want more info. That means (at least right away) I don't have to contact these people to try and get a complete account number out of them.

5. I forgot to ask but so far I have only found one form that does not come in a fill-able PDF format. It is a local form to the court not a federal one. I was able to download everything else in the court required PDF format. The 7 seven day trial of Adobe should suffice as long as you are aware of all the forms that need to be converted and do them within the seven days.

The last thing we discussed (she brought it up) was the required pre-filing credit counseling. They were not able to direct me me to a free one and I have not checked the prices on all of them.
However there is a form. Here is what is says on the site: Certificate of Credit Counseling (obtained from agency) (or certificate of exigent circumstances with a motion for approval of exigent circumstances or motion to excuse credit counseling). It looks like I can try to obtain a certificate of exigent circumstances with a motion for approval of exigent circumstances or motion to excuse credit counseling. I think I ran across this form once but will have to find it again. Once I find it I might have another question for the Pro Se Clerk.

For whatever reason, it seems like a fair amount of effort has been made to let truly poor people (like me) get this properly filed at no cost. Is there any reason I should not pursue getting the counseling excused? I don't want to piss off a judge but with the exception of a Paypal Business Debit Card, I have no bank accounts, open credit cards or loans or anything. Other than the 2 vehicles I mentioned earlier there is nothing for them to find because there is nothing.

My gut feeling is that the fee waiver will probably be declined as even though I have no income, I do have to list the vehicles on that application. I can only imagine that might be used against me for the credit counseling form as well once I find it and see what it asks for.

With all that said, I tend to be a pessimist when dealing with government. I have dealt with both the Michigan Unemployment Agency and the Michigan Secretary of State (they do drivers licenses, car tags, stuff like that) and have found both to be very inefficient and not really care to much about doing their job. They are both very hard to reach a person at. In contrast, so far in my limited dealing with this BK court I have been surprised and somewhat impressed with what appears to be the level and quality of help available. These people sound like they care!

So what are the thoughts on:

1. Trying to get the Credit Counseling waived for exigent circumstances. Should I give it a shot or scrape up the 20.00 from somewhere. I would like to go through the process but I don't know who makes these decisions regarding waiving filing fees and credit counseling . Would it be the same judge assigned to my whole case, maybe a different judge that just makes decisions? Maybe not even a judge? Any thoughts.

2. Just adding the Debtor Electronic Bankruptcy Noticing (DeBN) to my initial filing and see what happens. It does have a spot for a case number which of course don't have yet. Maybe wait until I get a case number then send it in. Anyone know about this?

I have to make the decision on what to do about the credit counseling before I file I think. Either do that (counseling) or file the exigent circumstances form.
After I do that I can start uploading stuff and go from there.

[OldandPoor]

It appears I can't edit my 1st post any longer. This is the updated list for my initial filing: Added

Voluntary Petition (Form 101)
Application to Have the Chapter 7 Filing Fee Waived (Form 103B)
Certificate of Credit Counseling
Debtor's Electronic Noticing Request Form (DeBN)
Bankruptcy Petition Cover Sheet (Local Form)
Statement About Your Social Security Numbers (Form 121)
List of Creditors ( Mailing Matrix)

Still need to find a form for obtaining a certificate of exigent circumstances with a motion for approval of exigent circumstances or motion to excuse credit counseling. Really wondering if I might piss someone off by going this route and maybe I shouldn't. If I do, that will be added to the list above instead of Certificate of Credit Counseling.

If I go that route they would have to determine if I did have the exigent circumstances to accept the filing I think, since they require one or the other to get it filed.

All thoughts on this avenue welcome.

Thanks.

Dan

[justbroke]

Just so that you know, unless you're in a war zone, deployed overseas by the military, or bound to a bed with no ability to travel, you will not get the education waived. When the court says "exigent" they mean it.

You may be able to get the fee for credit education by simply asking for a waiver from the provider(s).

[OldandPoor]

My bad there, not knowing the proper definiton of the word. I thought it was some BS legal term and never looked it up, though it kind of is bcause they could have said urgent or immediate! I guess it could be urgent since without funds for the class you are unable to file and for some (not really me) not being able to file could be a very big problem. I am sure me asking the provider would give them a good laugh for days.

I'd like to see where it would go but if I can find it for 20.00 or so I should be able to find the cash.

Is the judge that will be assigned to my case the person that will rule about the fee waiver or is it some other person?

Thanks

Dan

[justbroke]

Yes, the judge (or their clerk) will decide on the fee waiver. It will be based on what's in that form application to pay in installments.