Just filed

[Goldfish]

[tigergem]

Cool. Funny that about the new forms. My own district was going through rule changes and form changes ON THE DAY I FILED. My forms were ok, but the new rules THAT DAY kind of threw me for a little bit of a loop through the process. That is because I had downloaded certain rules the week of my filing, and since I continued to do so after I filed, some of them were up to date and some of them were not. Then ON THE DATE of my 341, I got a brand new Trustee! lol! The other guy moved to California! Go figure!

[Goldfish]

just looking over the court papers from Wed's filing; wow

Here's the most glaring thing:

"Presumption of Abuse under 11 USC 707(b)
"Insufficient information has been filed to date to permit the clerk to make any determination concerning the presumptions of abuse. If more complete information, when filed, shows that the preumption has arisen, creditors will be notified."

They hit me with this :


"ORDER TO COMPLY WITH BANKRUPTCY RULE 1007 AND NOTICE OF INTENT TO DISMISS CASE"

"You failed to file the following documents:
Sch C
Sch E
Statement - Form 22A
Stmt of Fin Affairs

According to bankruptcy rule 1007(c) ....

I also have a
"CASE COMMENCEMENT DEFICIENCY NOTICE"

"Statement of Assistance of Non-Attorney or Bankruptcy Preparer.
[Local Rule 1002 - 1 (g)

I take it that because they are saying that I failed to file these forms, when I indeed did file these forms, but they were not on last months up to date forms, that therefore they claim i have a "presumption of abuse"..

This is already too much for me. Come on.


Do I need to go to Public Counsel, Mon or Wed this week [Wed next week marks 14 days by which I must response ] to strainghten this out. I need to arrange other appts to do that.

I need to make sure I can get the current forms they want. These schedules were submitted !!! On Public Counsel forms !!

I'm slightly freaked out. They are telling people I have a Presumption of Abuse because I didn't fill out the forms on the most current venue. Wow. Talk about uphill battles. gf

[justbroke]

You need to just get this done. The forms are on the U.S. Courts website. It's important to make sure you're using current forms. Did you fill these in by hand or computer? Since you don't have the correct Means Test (Official Form B22A) they can't determine the abuse or not. You also have other bad schedules. You have issues.

I don't understand why you say you used the "Public Counsel forms" yet you had the forms complete, from staying up all night, before going to public counsel. Yes, you are responsible for following all the rules, even if you're pro se. Procedure is what complicates and destroys pro se filers.

[Goldfish]

JB, I'm not sure what you're saying. Here's how it went.

I went to Public Counsel's 4 hour session on how to fill out the forms, which Public Counsel supplied ( a few weeks ago).

I filled out the forms they supplied handwritten.

I went back to Public Counsel 2 times; first to look at the forms I managed to complete; then back again when I had them complete. Several lawyers looked at them there the day I filed them.

I can't believe that they have no clue. I even called the head lawyer there on Wed when I went home, reporting my experience. I never heard back..


OK. So, need to be clear here about how best to straighten this out. And I also have the additional complication that I want to straighten out what to do with the unfiled taxes. I never listed them anywhere. I'm planning to check with BK/tax accountants... to try to kill this issue.

[ What is the deadline for amending the petition, and if they are asking for for e.g. Sch C and E why shouldn't I just put the possible amendments on there, since they are demanding new schedules.]

Seems I was sent in with all the wrong forms. How prompt must I be now?

Thanks for reviewing this with me. I'll do what's required.

[tigergem]

If I were you, I would go straight to your local district's web site and see if they have the forms there to download.

I would be sure to have everything filed by the 15 day deadline after your filing.

When you use the correct forms, write on the top of each one AMENDED.

Bummer that about Schedule C. It means a fee plus the entire matrix has to be served again.

Edit: Thinking. Well. On the other hand, maybe not the fee. Since they are saying you failed to file it. But the service on the matrix, yeah, probably. Since they are saying you failed to file it, that means they wouldn't recognize the service of it either.

Clarification: They charge a fee to amend schedule C.

Oh yeah, and whatever changes or additions you are going to make for the unfiled taxes, this is the time to do it.

[tigergem]

By the way, I used to work in the 777 Building at 7th & Fig, not too far from that courthouse. Never was in that courthouse though...

[Goldfish]

Do note change of forms 4/10/10 BEWARE !

a little discrepancy resolved. Namely how Public Counsel could mislead me.

I was just talking to this lawyer (I met along the way-- his name is 'Jim') and he told me that a lot of forms changed 4/10/10. That if I go to the cacb.uscourts.gov site I'll even see a list of when the forms were changed.

So here's the resolution: (except for the local deficiency I got served)
I originally went to Public Counsel prior to this change in forms. They had no reason to know last week when I visited their office that I was working with their outdated forms. (Except that I did call to their attention that Schedule C did not have a "Total" line which apeared in both their own sample and in the Nolo book; and that when I checked the government form page, this form did not have a Total line either. Anyway, I was very conscious of this stuff. The in-take BK clerk had told me, "you're using old forms"; I told her I just went to the US form site that morning (in particular, on C), and it was not different. That's why I'm a little surprised. I really thought about all this stuff. )

[[ Aside: This lawyer said he didn't think this Public Counsel employed competent people. He said many don't have their law degrees. [one guy I met did not.] Case by case he pointed out how a seasoned lawyer has insights into the process that anyone who only had to go through it once or twice in a lifetime (such as divorce or bankruptcy) would not know. We discussed this stuff.]]

Tiger, this lawyer (at least initially) said not to put "amended" on the forms, but then he also didn't think my case was "accepted"; I said I have a case #. which surprised him. I take what he says with a grain of salt. [I told him he was wrong in one regard, viz., having to list the landlord. He accepted that.]
He was thinking through what changes I would need to make and was uncertain about whether there would be need to pay to 're-file' Sch C and the matrix.

So Happy to know, Tiger, you're acquainted with this neck of the woods. I almost never have gone downtown. This is a real experience for me. [I try to stay much as possible west of the 405, ocean breeze and all.) Now I can think of you when I'm there, and think 'Hey, Tigergem's been around these parts." I'll feel your presence.

[tigergem]

Yes, I see the point that if they are stating it is a deficiency and they are stating the schedules are "not filed" then they wouldn't exactly be "amended", either.

Yeah, I lived in Redondo Beach and then moved to Oxnard. Always amazed me that the 14 or so mile commute to downtown LA from R.B. took the same amount of time as 60 or so miles from Oxnard. Gosh that was a long time ago though lol. I don't think LA would be my choice of places to haunt in spirit lol.

[justbroke]

Wow, with help like that... pro se debtors are better off staying at home, in bed, under the blankets. Seriously. I think it caused you more grief than it was worth. The Public Counsel doesn't even appear, from my reading, to be "experienced" in practicing law before the U.S. Bankruptcy Court (USBC). One would hope that they were at least admitted to practice before the USBC!

Goldfish, I want to help you, but all of this is really hurting my head.

[tigergem]

Ah, I wouldn't be too hard on them, justbroke. At least they are trying to help, which is more than most districts provide to pro se debtors. Once these things are pointed out to them, hopefully they will improve. This could be used as one of those cautionary tales on this forum. ALWAYS CHECK YOUR LOCAL BANKRUPTCY DISTRICT WEB SITE FOR FORM AND RULE CHANGES. That's really all there is to it, and it's simply the prudent thing to do.

[justbroke]

Ah, I wouldn't be too hard on them, justbroke. At least they are trying to help, which is more than most districts provide to pro se debtors. Once these things are pointed out to them, hopefully they will improve. This could be used as one of those cautionary tales on this forum. ALWAYS CHECK YOUR LOCAL BANKRUPTCY DISTRICT WEB SITE FOR FORM AND RULE CHANGES. That's really all there is to it, and it's simply the prudent thing to do.

It already is. I always instruct debtor to NEVER use the forms from any guidebooks (especially NoLo), and to check the U.S. Bankruptcy Court website for current forms. Unfortunately, not knowing the rules is not an excuse, and even the Bankruptcy Court warns us pro se filers as such.

I still think that bad assistance is worse than no assistance, if you ask me.

[tigergem]

Even the U.S. site isn't specific enough in a lot of cases, if the local district has different rules and forms. My judge has gone so far as to design and write some of his own forms and post them for download. And some of them are included by reference in the Local Rules as Judge P's Form #whatever. You don't find that information on the U.S. Bankruptcy site. You have to dig deeper.

[justbroke]

Yes, local forms are always local forms, but they are not the official forms. What I mean, is that Official Form B22A is never a local form. The local form may be a specific SSN declaration, non-bankruptcy prepared affidavits/certifications, and other things like that.

I'm talking about the "official" forms. I had a "local" form problem, even though I pulled the local form from the District website. It was an SSN declaration form and, after the clerk told me I used the "wrong" form, I told her that the form I used is the one on the District Clerk's website.

I think you still run into "local" form issues regardless, but you should never have "official" form issues. If the local "Public Counsel" can't even get you the right local forms... you're no worse off than you were having not used them.

Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Goldfish]

Hey guys thanks for the input.

Yes, this does annoy me; it's hurt my head too, so a just took a little nap.

I will tell the people at Public Counsel so they know at least when they instruct one of their bi-monthly bk clinic's they should have the right forms. But it does make you wonder how competent they are otherwise. The minimum at a self-help desk is to be filing with the proper forms.

Anyway, I need to engage your attention on this other matter in order to get the job done if you have any thoughts.

I don't know whether to move this to another thread. It's those awful unfiled taxes. I really want them behind me, but I can afford to pay absolutely nothing at this time.

The key issue is whether I shall state anything at all about unfiled taxes, and if so which schedule (and whether it would benefit me in any way, such as, putting a halt on interest/penalty).

I'm going to go through my returns today, see which were filed and which not. I've looked into this before; not as bad as it sounds.

For the IRS I figured (by the simple method of standard deduction...) that I owed about $300 in 2006, maybe something similar in 2005, maybe not, maybe refund. I never filed, and they haven't contacted me.
I tried working it with itemized deductions, but really thought a tax accountant might be able to zero out these items.

I need to look up statute of limitations, federal v. state, with regard to filing.
The CA State Franchise Tax Board went after my neighbor LAST YEAR for an unfiled 1994 return, attempting to garnish her wages. She filed and paid $130; then got a bill for $800 plus for penalty/interest; I'd prefer to avoid that.

Anyway, I will be working on this stuff shortly. I really don't want to throw the IRS and Franchise Tax Board into the matrix unless I know what I'm doing. [Note: the State many years ago levyed my wages $1500 --one shot-- for failure to file; but I didn't owe them anything near that, if anything.]

[They were among my potential lawsuits, Sch B #21 but Public Counsel told me to take out the lawsuits.]

I don't want an unfiled return causing me grief later on. And don't know whether BK offers any protection. Don't know who to talk to.
And having to resubmit schedules pressures me now to have to try to come to a conclusion.

Thanks, I know it's a headache. It'll be over soon.

That's where I'm at. I'll be working tonight on this; and wondering who to call tomorrow. [Does "We the People" know anything? They're local.]