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Lawyers Push High-Fee Bankruptcies

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    Lawyers Push High-Fee Bankruptcies

    December 14, 2010

    Five of each 1,000 American households filed for bankruptcy last year. That's four times the 1980 rate. Almost as worrisome as the jump in filings is new evidence that suggests lawyers often recommend a bankruptcy path that triples fees and brings clients less relief than cheaper options.

    Bankruptcy is the process through which the insolvent are relieved of debt. There are six main variations described in the U.S. Code, two of which apply broadly to individuals (as opposed to entities like corporations and municipalities or to members of specific occupations like family farmers).

    Chapter 7 bankruptcy (named for its place in the Code) involves the liquidation of assets followed by a speedy discharge of most unsecured debt (apart from some exempted items, like federal student loans). Under Chapter 13 bankruptcy, the debtor keeps personal property and sets up a court-approved repayment plan lasting several years. Upon completion, remaining debts are discharged. Both forms of bankruptcy free individuals from further collection attempts and correspondence by creditors.

    Broadly speaking, Chapter 7 bankruptcy brings faster and greater relief. Only 5% of Chapter 7 cases involve asset liquidations because most filers have few assets that courts are interested in seizing (think paid-off property, not microwave ovens). Chapter 7 bankruptcies stay on credit records longer, but ironically, they often make filers better credit risks because they carry no ongoing payments.

    Also, Chapter 7 carries much lower fees – a little over $700 for a typical filing, versus more than $2,400 for Chapter 13. There's an income limit for Chapter 7 filers, but it takes debt payments into consideration, and some 95% of filers qualify.

    Only about two-thirds of filers choose Chapter 7 over Chapter 13, however.

    Researchers at Brigham Young University and Rutgers have reason to believe the number should be much higher. In a paper published recently in the Berkeley Electronic Journal of Economic Analysis & Policy, they show that when a client visits a lawyer who favors Chapter 13 in general, their chances of filing under 13 increase by 35 percentage points.

    Their chances of a failed bankruptcy soar, too. Some 60% of Chapter 13 cases are dismissed because clients fall behind on their payments.

    Some clients feel it's their moral duty to continue paying under Chapter 13, but too often they end up paying lawyers rather than creditors. Chapter 13 legal fees tend to be built into payment plans. (That makes clients less sensitive to the size of the fees, researchers say.) The rules allow lawyers to collect their fees from the earliest payments before other creditors are paid. In a post-mortem on failed Chapter 13 cases in Texas, the aforementioned study authors found that filers paid less than 2% of their unsecured debts. In 40% of cases, lawyers were paid more than all other creditors combined.

    "The right number of Chapter 13 cases is not zero, but it's likely closer to one-tenth of cases rather than one-third," says Lars John Lefgren, one of the study authors and an economics professor at Brigham Young. "Considering their financial incentives, lawyers perhaps shouldn't be the ones steering people into Chapter 13."

    Last edited by AngelinaCat; 12-15-2010, 07:56 AM. Reason: To bring in line with formatting rules for this board.

    #2
    This article reinforces the need to go to more than one bankruptcy attorney for free consultations.

    There have been several posters here who have gone to an attorney and been told they have to file Chapter 13, who then eventually filed Chapter 7 with a different attorney.

    Read, read, read. To be forewarned is forearmed.
    Filed Chapter 7 July 2010
    Attended 341 September 2010
    Discharged November 2010 Closed November 2010

    Comment


      #3
      It almost happened to me!

      One lawyer's office that I visited refused to discuss the second half of the means test saying that my income was too high for a Chapter 7. After I got home, I completed the entire means test online and on paper form 22A (I think) and called them to let them know that I passed. They replied that there is NO WAY I could complete the means test myself, and that it isn't available anywhere for the general public to even review it. I told them the website, form number, etc. and they still refused to listen. My second attorney looked at it, said "you passed, allright" and we're persuing a chapter 7. Thank goodness for this forum and the internet, or I would be filing a Chapter 13 with an unethical lawyer.
      Filed 1/31/11 341 3/2/11 Waiting for discharge........

      Comment


        #4
        Here is the rub, if you want an otherwise 13 to be a 7, you will PAY FOR IT in higher attorney fees, up front. Think somewhere between $3000-$6000.

        Interesting study though and I do believe they are right, on average, there are people ending up in 13's that could be 7's. But I don't think you can place all the blame in the lawyer. The debtors often times want to try to do something in a chapter 13 they can't easily do in a 7 (save a home, 2nd mortgage lien strip, etc). But, for those cases that really are borderline 7/13 means test case, the debtor may not have the money to shell out for a "good" attorney to make it happen.

        Comment


          #5
          oddly, today I called two of the lawyers I spoke with about Chapter 13... I told them I wanted to do Chapter 7 and take my chances on negotiating out of 2nd lien... One said no problem, told me revised fee... the other responded that he wanted to do a means test for $600 but as of now he thinks I should stick with Chapter 13...

          I will do my own means test before I meet with yet another lawyer on Friday

          Comment


            #6
            There are 3 things happening nowadays that I am completely unable to wrap my brain around. They are oxymorons to me:

            1. An Expensive Bankruptcy Attorney. REALLY!?!?! If I HAD that kind of money, WHY would I be filing BK? Karma will beat the crap out of these bastards one day.
            2. Debt Consolidation Companies. REALLY?? You can cut my payments in half and I'm DONE!?!! (Yes, I fell prey to these shmucks). Thanks for screwing me TWICE!! (as if I wasn't getting screwed enough by the cc companies)
            3. Employers denying employment due to BK Filings: REALLY!?!?! Just because I was forced into BK does NOT make me lazy, irresponsible, a deadbeat, or untrustworthy! And BTW - If I'd HAD a job, I MAY have not needed to file BK!

            Thanks for letting me vent. The sheer stupidity of some of these "practices" just makes me shiver.
            Filed Ch. 7 11/8/10: Survived 341 Meeting 12/13/10 Report of No Distribution!! 12/14/10Received UST Presumption of Abuse!! 12/15/10 UST states Dismissal is Inappropriate! DISHARGED!! 2/22/11

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by clevelandmom View Post
              There are 3 things happening nowadays that I am completely unable to wrap my brain around. They are oxymorons to me:

              1. An Expensive Bankruptcy Attorney. REALLY!?!?! If I HAD that kind of money, WHY would I be filing BK? Karma will beat the crap out of these bastards one day.
              2. Debt Consolidation Companies. REALLY?? You can cut my payments in half and I'm DONE!?!! (Yes, I fell prey to these shmucks). Thanks for screwing me TWICE!! (as if I wasn't getting screwed enough by the cc companies)
              3. Employers denying employment due to BK Filings: REALLY!?!?! Just because I was forced into BK does NOT make me lazy, irresponsible, a deadbeat, or untrustworthy! And BTW - If I'd HAD a job, I MAY have not needed to file BK!

              Thanks for letting me vent. The sheer stupidity of some of these "practices" just makes me shiver.
              I totally agree with you. Expensive bk attorneys, this should only be for really rich celebs like the Kardashians.

              Debt consolidation and any company that pretty much just scams people, the FTC and lawyers should sue them, jail the management and shut them down, period.

              Employers discriminating because of BK, they already discriminate enough when interviewing, just great, another setback for the poorest of poor, struggling to try to become middle class again one day.

              Finally, those corporations that received bailouts from our government and taxpayers and were supposed to help those struggling with loans, but instead hoarded the money!!! May there be a special place in hell for corporate executives like this.

              Comment


                #8
                This exact thing happened to us. We went to 4 attorneys. Two said even though we were above median income, we had a good shot at a Chapter 7 due to circumstances and our means test. The other two said absolutely not, you'll never qualify for a 7, you must choose a 13, you make too much money. I even questioned them about my means test, and how it showed I had little disposable income after my expenses. The two who wanted me to choose 13, said that it didn't matter, I made too much and there was no way, AT ALL, I would EVER be eligible for a 7. The third attorney (who told us to go 13) even went so far as to insult my spouse on our expenses. We ran out of that office, I really don't want to ever be openly insulted by someone I am considering to hire to be 'on my side.' Anyway, we went with our 4th attorney visit, and left the retainer that day. He explained it all to us, confirmed that yes we were over medium, but no that didn't mean we'd never qualify for a 7. He told us it was worth trying, and to top it off he said if for some reason we had to dismiss our 7 or it the trustee dismissed it, which he truly felt we wouldn't have to, he'd put the entire retainer amount from the 7 against what he'd charge for a 13, and we'd just go that route. The best part, our attorney wasn't really any more expensive than the others; his price was very competitive for our area.

                So here we are about 6 months after we first filed, with a discharged chapter 7 and really happy with our fresh start. It has been a blessing this holiday season to be able to go out (with a budget in mind of course) and spend CASH for our Christmas gifts. Now granted we're not spending tons of cash, but at least its cash and it's MY money I am spending, and am feeling so good about it.

                I have often wondered why those two attorneys were so adamant about us never qualifying for a 13. I hate to think it, but sometimes I wonder if it's because they'd have made about 3 times as much money on us if we did go the 13 route. I truly feel (especially with attorney #3, the insulting one) that he just wanted us to spend as much as we could with his firm. I can't say enough what a wonderful place this forum was. I learned so much here by reading everyone's posts about selecting the right attorney, etc. I really wonder what position we'd be in right now if I hadn't found this place......

                Comment


                  #9
                  It has to do with the nature of the BK business. Consumer BK is not like business or corporate law where you can continual bill big clients for all the work you do. In BK, too many attorneys get sucked into the "easy path." If a BK attorney really tries to compete on price, they really can't offer to go the extra mile because most clients cannot really afford it. Most attorneys, on a per case basis, will lose money on borderline chapter 7 cases. I am willing to bet that if CreditCreten's attorney really was competitive with others, so long as there were not objections or hearings, he probably broke even, but if he had to work out any objections, he lost money relative to the time invested. The more expensive the case, the less likely the attorney is to actually be profitable, a $6,000 BK usually requires a $9,000 investment of attorney time. So, there are not too many firms that do the middle of the road cases. They either do all simple chapter 7's and make money on volume, or put all borderline cases into chapter 13's. Here in CO, there are literally only a handful of attorneys that will take what I refer to as middle ground BK's. The client can't afford the "downtown" corporate firms, but the case is too complex for the volume firms.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It is always best to get second or third opinions just as one would do if they went to a doctor and one stated you definately need surgery, the second stated you could benefit from surgery and the third would say there is no need for surgery. There are dentists that say you need to have the tooth pulled and then you visit another dentist that states he can save the tooth. Shop around and research. Also remember if you want to keep your house and you have a good bit of equity in that house, or want to keep other assets, you are probably facing a Chapter 13. We wanted to keep our house and our attorney thoroughly explained to us prior to our filing why we needed to file a Chapter 13 to do that compared to a Chapter 7. We did the right thing under our circumstances - note we had the top BK attorney in our state at the time who was recommended to us by one of my former attorney bosses. And HHM is totally right - ask anyone who has done a pro se filing as to the work involved and they attempt to file a Chapter 7 and have to switch to filing a Chapter 13. The amount of work is tremendous.
                    _________________________________________
                    Filed 5 Year Chapter 13: April 2002
                    Early Buy-Out: April 2006
                    Discharge: August 2006

                    "A credit card is a snake in your pocket"

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm sure that ethical attorneys are indeed between a rock and a hard place in trying to commit the time necessary to do the job right and collect for that time from people who have no money. Unethical attorneys, which I'm certain I met in my first interview, are possibly padding their pockets at the expense of their clients by suggesting the incorrect type of filing. I would have no problem if an attorney had explained to me the real reasons why he thought I should file a Chapter 13. If I disagreed, (which I would have after doing research) I would then have had a decision to make based on those facts. Instead, the most advertised and largest bankruptcy law firm in my state chose to lie to me and purposely mislead me to the point of telling me that the form in my hand didn't exist, I couldn't have filled it out myself, and whatever numbers I came up with were fiction based on the fact that I didn't know what I was doing. I feel sorry for their clients that didn't know any better, because they were pretty convincing. I'd like to see the statistics on that firm...I'm sure Chapter 13s are WAY out of line.
                      Filed 1/31/11 341 3/2/11 Waiting for discharge........

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The first attorney I saw told me I'd have to do a Chapter 13 before he even ran the numbers. I did some online research on him, and found some horrible reviews of his services. I didn't go back to him. I ended up in a Chapter 7 with another attorney. At first, he told me there was a possibility my case would be converted to a 13, but that didn't happen. I got my discharge without a single hitch. I'm also thankful for the paralegal who worked on my case. I think she was instrumental in getting my Chapter 7 approved. I actually think she is more experienced with BK than my attorney.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          To follow-up on the ethical issue, granted, this is splitting hairs, but...the thing is, a client is still better off in a 13 relative to do nothing even if they "might" have been able to do a 7. Unless it is a totally obvious chapter 7, the attorney that recommends a chapter 13 is till recommending an option that helps the client and makes them "better" off, even if that solution may not be the "best" solution. I am not trying to justify blatant abuse of putting obvious chapter 7's into chapter 13's. But you should understand that there are shades a gray.

                          A conscientious attorney will at least present a choice and allow the client to chose. e.g. based on your circumstances we can try a chapter 7, here are the challenges, and here is how I can try to deal with it, but it will cost you $xxxx.xx, or, file chapter 13, here is how it will help, here are the pros and cons, here is how much it will cost...what do you (client) want to do?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I just wanted to point out that while the attorney we finally went with was competitive in our area but he wasn't cheap at least not from what I found in my research. I think we paid about 1/2 what the other attorneys wanted for the 13. Luckily our case ended up having no objections, at all, it was smooth sailing most of the way through. The UST got involved at the very beginning, but that was due to some numbers not totaling correctly, but the attorney's office corrected that immediately and after that we heard absolutely nothing. I just feel that our case was not as borderline as the other two attorneys made it out to be and if we had listened to one of them, we'd have never tried to go for the 7. In fact, honestly, had I not found this forum, I don't think I would have ever thought we'd qualify for a 7.

                            I do realize there are some good reasons for the 13, but we were slightly upside down on our house, so no equity. One 7 year old car, and another with payments so no assets there either. I agree a 13 is better than nothing when you are drowning, but the 7 just works so much better for us, and I am so happy to have found an attorney who explained everything to me, didn't make me our my spouse feel like crap, and was able to get us the relief we needed.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Amen!!!

                              Comment

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