Political Discussion

[JRScott]

Keep in mind Bandit that without Congressional approval Bush could never have done what he did. Blaming him alone for the shape of the country is wrong.

The Financial Crisis was as much the fault of Frank and other congressional leaders who forced banks to overextend.

The war in Iraq would have been impossible the last two years if Congress had ceased to fund it.

Everyone likes to blame the President and use him for a scapegoat, but he alone is not responsible. There are many responsible, the one good thing is the scapegoat can't serve more than 8 years, whereas the people in congress can serve so long as they can fool the people into continuing to vote for them.

[Bandit]

With Dems fully in control you'll probably see some form of the carbon tax pass which actually will further erode our industrial base in the United States. I don't think the Health Care will come for the same reason Clinton never got it through, we simply can't afford it and the numbers are to big to hide.

We are going to have to go to socialized medicine. I dont see any other way that people can be covered & that is how others are able to do it, even if they have to wait to get help, the help will be provided.


I am not saying a total socialized country, but I have no problem with socialized medicine. Does it have flaws? of course, but it is better than what we have now because right now we have nothing.

I believe the wife did get some things started for children if they qualified but by no means did it even touch the masses.

[Bandit]

Keep in mind Bandit that without Congressional approval Bush could never have done what he did. Blaming him alone for the shape of the country is wrong.

The Financial Crisis was as much the fault of Frank and other congressional leaders who forced banks to overextend.

The war in Iraq would have been impossible the last two years if Congress had ceased to fund it.

Everyone likes to blame the President and use him for a scapegoat, but he alone is not responsible. There are many responsible, the one good thing is the scapegoat can't serve more than 8 years, whereas the people in congress can serve so long as they can fool the people into continuing to vote for them.

I know, but he pulled the wool over the eyes of congress and the public for the first 4 years as he ran the country with fear. It was not until the 6th year that congress and everyone started realizing what a mistake & a great liar he was...so I still blame bush & cheney first & then congress second.
Bush/Cheney was no dummy in his/their personal agenda and stacked the deck like they did, while congress & the people were deceived.

[JRScott]

We are going to have to go to socialized medicine. I dont see any other way that people can be covered & that is how others are able to do it, even if they have to wait to get help, the help will be provided.


I am not saying a total socialized country, but I have no problem with socialized medicine. Does it have flaws? of course, but it is better than what we have now because right now we have nothing.

I believe the wife did get some things started for children if they qualified but by no means did it even touch the masses.

Bandit the simple truth is that our country can't afford socialized medicine. I know many feel guilty about not helping out the less fortunate. I did quite a bit of number crunching. To cover every citizen in the United States at a level equivalent to that of current day Medicare/Medicaid would cost on the average between 3.25 and 3.65 trillion a year if you account for some cost savings by rolling all the plans into a single program. This is before any other government spending. The total Federal Budget in 2008 was 2.9 trillion dollars.

As an example you'd have to double all current federal taxes and fees and still would not generate enough income. Not to mention if you did that we'd slide into a deep recession.

What we really need are lower taxes and less government. Rather than having the government take your money and then give it back to you stipulating how you spend it through entitlements, it would be much better if they just cut out the middle man, themselves, and let you decide what to do.

Some want to have the government decide for them how they will spend money feeling like they are doing their part. However such action is not the same as giving to charity or helping others because it does not carry with it the well being when you do it yourself.

Just because the world is doing something, doesn't mean we need to. There's nothing that makes me madder than having a US Judge cite some European case or something in his finding, because such have no bindings in US law.

[JRScott]

I know, but he pulled the wool over the eyes of congress and the public for the first 4 years as he ran the country with fear. It was not until the 6th year that congress and everyone started realizing what a mistake & a great liar he was...so I still blame bush & cheney first & then congress second.
Bush/Cheney was no dummy in his/their personal agenda and stacked the deck like they did, while congress & the people were deceived.

There was a certain amount of fear mongering, but I've seen that same fear mongering in Obama's campaign.

For example his claim that McCain was going to eliminate Medicare/Medicaid or severely diminish them to pay for National Health Care. McCain's actual plan called for rolling those two into his plan, thus eliminate unnecessary red tap.

He made folks in the media afraid to critique him, because he was black and different than those other guys, yet McCain did not make any racial comments or suggestions.

Fear is currently used in American Politics by both the R and D.

My greatest fear now is that Obama will be assassinated, or that his presidency will be so bad that we don't see another non white win the presidency for 50 years.

[Bandit]

Thanks to all that participated in this poll, our new President has been elected. And based on the results of this poll a large majority of the people expected/wanted to a Democrat to win.

That is because you made an unfair poll just like the unfair election itself. next time put something like libertarian, constitution, green -and for dem & rep, put OTHER.
The only reason the poll went that way is because that is the way the current system operates and people make uninformed decisions based on the two party system flip flopping back & forth with the same old same old same old same old same old ...half of them do not even know what 'other' is and that is very clear to me.

[Bandit]

Bandit the simple truth is that our country can't afford socialized medicine.

yes it can. if other countries with less can afford it, so can the richest one.

[Bandit]

There was a certain amount of fear mongering, but I've seen that same fear mongering in Obama's campaign.

For example his claim that McCain was going to eliminate Medicare/Medicaid or severely diminish them to pay for National Health Care. McCain's actual plan called for rolling those two into his plan, thus eliminate unnecessary red tap.

He made folks in the media afraid to critique him, because he was black and different than those other guys, yet McCain did not make any racial comments or suggestions.

Fear is currently used in American Politics by both the R and D.

My greatest fear now is that Obama will be assassinated, or that his presidency will be so bad that we don't see another non white win the presidency for 50 years.

I agree with most of that but it is going to be very difficult to beat Bush in the fear & lying department. Obama is lazy, we have seen what he has done in Illinois as senator and that is pretty much nothing. He would rather dance with Ellen than do work.

I feel Obamas wife and preacher are worse than he is when it comes to the fearmongering and, well, race... though he is just a bit wiser than they are to keep it on the edge in his speech. I do feel that a man with black skin is one of the best things that could ever happen in this country for the obvious reasons.

He is definately a better liar than McCain, but not better than Bush.

[JRScott]

yes it can. if other countries with less can afford it, so can the richest one.

Not at current tax levels.

That's why the two promises are inconsistent with one another.

The only way he can institute National Health Care is to raise taxes, keep in mind as far as I know the taxes in all European countries is higher than ours. They also generally suffer from stagnant economic growth and have relatively high unemployment rates considered to what we've enjoyed in the last decade or so.

Limits on malpractice payouts and wrongful death suits due to malpractice would do a great deal to lower health care costs. It is the largest expenditure for doctors and most hospitals.

A windfall tax on the pharmaceutical companies would also be appropriate. Keep in mind as an industrial average the pharmaceutical companies have a profit margin of about 4 times that of big oil. Big oil only seems so big because they are huge megacorps really. While I'm normally against windfall taxes, the pharmaceuticals have been sticking it to the consumer for a long time and have not shown any kind of self control and I can't think of any other way to force them. (Maybe base it off the Alaskan Oil Windfall Tax for redistribution to people).

Obama's idea of centralized medical records could help lower costs. However it could also make the system much more vulnerable to attack.

[allavdj]

yes it can. if other countries with less can afford it, so can the richest one.

Do these "other countries" with less fund:

College Educations - 90 Billion
Welfare Progams (Medicaid, Medicare, Unemployment Etc) 976 Billion
Social Security - 586 Billion
Subsidies to Farming - 27 Billion
Other countries that are poverty stricken - 32 Billion

Now for the fun numbers.

The US -INCOME- for 2007 was...

dum dum dum

2.4 Trillion

The US - BUDGET- for 2007 was...

2.8 Trillion

The US can't afford jack shit. If the US was a private citizen...it would be surfing this board because it would be filing bankruptcy. Our country is broke folks, we can't afford the programs we have now. If we eliminated the entire military budget, it might balance things out. (I throw that in there for you folks that think Iraq is the source of our countries problems) I don't think McCain was the solution and I don't think Obama is either, but we certainly don't need a bunch of new programs and spending.

[Bandit]

A windfall tax on the pharmaceutical companies would also be appropriate. Keep in mind as an industrial average the pharmaceutical companies have a profit margin of about 4 times that of big oil. Big oil only seems so big because they are huge megacorps really. While I'm normally against windfall taxes, the pharmaceuticals have been sticking it to the consumer for a long time and have not shown any kind of self control and I can't think of any other way to force them. (Maybe base it off the Alaskan Oil Windfall Tax for redistribution to people).

Agreed.

This is probably the biggest problem as there is little control over what is being charged. I know for a fact that a 20,000 overnight hospital stay does not cost more than about 4,000 dollars. That is all insurance will pay in the adjustment, but if you are poor & do not have insurance then you are stuck with the entire 20,000 bill.

There is no reason why people cannot be getting general health care for the basics such as kidney stones, flu, outpatient surgery, maternity, basic dental. My dentist will charge 1800.00 for one root canal & yet it really costs less than half of that & he still makes good money. They will charge $400.00 in the hospital for the same exact tool you can get at the hardware store for $10.00. This is a problem.

I am not saying that everything can be covered like complications and handicaps that require intense labor from doctors & nurses, but the basics can be covered.

but as we see, a 3 trillion dollar war that destroys everything is more important than caring for your own people & setting the industry standard in the USA straight.

On another note, if obama does do what he says, he will mosty likely also end what is left of the health insurance provided by employers as that money will be going to higher taxes, thus more people without insurance...and it will be pocketed instead of granting basic health insurance.

[Bandit]

Do these "other countries" with less fund:

College Educations - 90 Billion
Welfare Progams (Medicaid, Medicare, Unemployment Etc) 976 Billion
Social Security - 586 Billion
Subsidies to Farming - 27 Billion
Other countries that are poverty stricken - 32 Billion

Now for the fun numbers.

The US -INCOME- for 2007 was...

dum dum dum

2.4 Trillion

The US - BUDGET- for 2007 was...

2.8 Trillion

The US can't afford jack shit. If the US was a private citizen...it would be surfing this board because it would be filing bankruptcy. Our country is broke folks, we can't afford the programs we have now. If we eliminated the entire military budget, it might balance things out. (I throw that in there for you folks that think Iraq is the source of our countries problems) I don't think McCain was the solution and I don't think Obama is either, but we certainly don't need a bunch of new programs and spending.

You can only blame your reps & dems for that because the public keeps voting for these iditos who make their pockets & their rich buddies wallets fatter.

The iraq war *IS* a huge source of the problem.

SS isn't funded, that is coming right from the people as a tax. Education loans are supposed to be paid back, but is it?. The government has been screwing the farmers over for decades and destroying the quality of produce & meats with chemicals.

I disagree that it cannot be afforded. INsurance is what it is because not everyone gets sick. It is a matter of adjusting tax payers money & applying it properly INSTEAD of stealing it. If I were not being taxed so high, I could afford to pay my own GOOD health insurance & and do way better on my own retirement investments.

Dont forget 700 billion on your list- to the already richest people so they can all have huge christmas bonuses. Now there is a plan.

[WhatMoney]

Bandit the simple truth is that our country can't afford socialized medicine. I know many feel guilty about not helping out the less fortunate. I did quite a bit of number crunching. To cover every citizen in the United States at a level equivalent to that of current day Medicare/Medicaid would cost on the average between 3.25 and 3.65 trillion a year if you account for some cost savings by rolling all the plans into a single program. This is before any other government spending. The total Federal Budget in 2008 was 2.9 trillion dollars.

NO ONE is calling for "socialized medicine" in the USA. There are only two countries in the world that have true socialized medicine: Cuba and Iran.
And there is only one country in the world that has no government health plan at all: Afghanistan. You could always move to Afghanistan if you dislike any government involvement in health plans.

Your above number crunching assumes government takeover of all health care for all citizens. This is a stupid assumption. Obama's proposals call for keeping the entire private health insurance plans provided by employers who can afford it just as is. Only those that do not have any health insurance would have the option of choosing a government administered plan, and it would still not be free for most.

Your numbers also assume no cost savings by providing universal preventative care for all citizens. Preventive care would drastically reduce the most expensive chronic conditions and diseases: Stroke, heart attack, diabetes, cancer, and obesity. It would also stop the use of Emergency Rooms by the uninsured for all medical care - often after the condition has become critical and costly to treat at the taxpayers expense.

The price gouging from drug companies, medical equipment and suppliers, Doctors, hospitals, and insurance companies would also be stopped. There is no reason why Health Insurance must be a for-profit business. It is NOT a for-profit business in most countries, yet they survive and prosper just like regulated utilities survive in this country. You have neglected the cost savings from all these changes - the savings would be so great that premiums for employers and employees would be reduced. The cost for insuring the 50 million uninsured Americans would be nothing even close to your numbers, when the net savings from the above factors are added in. And of course no taxes are spent insuring those who already have insurance through their employer.

[magyar123]

One of the major issues - illegal immigration/immigration reform was NEVER discussed in detail by the two .

[Bandit]

NO ONE is calling for "socialized medicine" in the USA. There are only two countries in the world that have true socialized medicine: Cuba and Iran.

Japan has socialized medicine and socialized health insurance. Socialized medicine is not a bad start for those who have nothing. Doctors call it socialized medicine & practice different than the USA, though government would be reluctant to call it that, that is what it is.

I would never expect every complicated medical problem to be covered nor would I ever expect peoples demands or complaints to be meant immediately, and not everyone can be treated and saved from illness.

That does not mean only socialized medicine has to be offered & I think that is what most people fear with the connection to forms of failed communism. That, and no one, especially the republican types, wants to give an extra dollar in insurance that might help someone less fortunate.

Maybe there will never be an answer.