Political Discussion

[spearmint]

I agree with most of what you said MSbklawyer. Where I disagree is with only giving student loans to people who study practical subjects. There are plenty of jobs for people with good writing and critical thinking skills, and that is what a general liberal arts education will give you. I am a strong believer in the benefits (both tangible and intangible) of a liberal arts education.

I also do not think it is for any one small group of people to decide who gets to rent and who gets to buy a home. Many middle class and upper middle class people were given mortgages and second mortgages that they couldn't afford, which they are now defaulting on. Most of those people would have been fine in a smaller house, or in the house that they are in, without the second mortgage. Should all of these people rent? I don't think so. Although, if you have no equity in your house, then you are essentially renting from the bank for all practical purposes.

And the BANKS are responsible for many homes that have been lost, not the homeowners. Many didn't know that when they ventured into a loan modification it was a parallel process with foreclosure and the corrupt banks often went in and took there homes without good reason.

[MSbklawyer]

I agree with most of what you said MSbklawyer.

You do? Somebody pinch me and wake me up. ;)

[MSbklawyer]

There are plenty of jobs for people with good writing and critical thinking skills, and that is what a general liberal arts education will give you. I am a strong believer in the benefits (both tangible and intangible) of a liberal arts education.

I know, but these lenders will give tons of money in student loans to anyone who can fog a mirror. The lenders know that the the government will make the loan good if the borrower doesn't. So far too often, the people that they bury in this debt have no realistic hope of graduating at all, much less of graduating in any kind of program that will give them an earning capacity necessary to pay the loans back. That's sad. And it's sad to see a person who has never earned over $10 an hour in his life being put in a huge home and being told that it's his and all that he has to do is make some unrealistic payment.

[backtoschool]

You do? Somebody pinch me and wake me up. ;)

I actually agree with a lot of what you say.

But seriously, I totally agree with you that owning a house that is underwater or has no equity in it is not really owning anything.

[JRScott]

I had every faith and hope in Obama when he was elected. I truly thought he would bring "change" to this country - good change!

I feel so disillusioned. He has done nothing but put money in the hands of corruption - the banks, the corporations, the entire financial industry - which only means that the dwindling middle class and the working class are making the rich richer and encouraging even more corruption.

I don't think Washington knows what ethics, morals and values are any more. I've lost all hope and faith in Obama.

The problem is the mentality in Washington. There are not many there that have had a real job in years and possibly decades. They don't abide by a budget and have everything pretty much handed to them. There are a few that don't fit that mold but they are very few.

The problem is that they do even the most liberal believe they can help raise people up by just giving them stuff. The problem is that you have to take it from someone to give it to them. Due to the waste and corruption inherit in government programs you have to bring more people down to raise a few up. That's what they don't really understand. You won't get everyone living at the middle class level even if you taxed the heck out of the rich, you'd barely get everyone to just above poverty due to the waste.

It's a decades long problem that has infiltrated both major parties and many of the minor ones. The Founding Fathers all believed that an education was key. However our educational system is in ruins. Throwing money at it doesn't work, because they've shown the kids that even if they do nothing the government will take care of them. So many of them have no motivation to improve themselves, thus the rising dropout rates and lower level of college graduates than we even had 15-20 years ago.

In order to progress, in order for us to do better, we must suffer consequences of wrong choices, unfortunately many government programs disavow this. They give a person a fish rather than teaching him to fish. That's the great problem with them.

The truth is that we need to fix many things in this nation. They will not be easy as we've had 2 generations pass that pretty much got used to getting whatever they wanted for practically nothing, those days are over. It is going to be a hard adjustment. But it goes in cycles, we've been here before and if history is of any worth we'll be here again. The reason it keeps repeating is that we don't learn our lesson and for some reason the generation that finally gets the lesson has trouble passing it to the next generation when times improve.

What's even sadder is that here in North Carolina the educational board what's to start teaching US History in the late 1870s, even after the great crash of 1870. They want to teach globilization and environmentalism (yes you know the climate change that the UN scientist admit they doctored the statistics for now). What we really need is greater emphasis on the Founding Fathers in education, as well as the hard periods of the country. Because we don't study them sufficiently we don't understand the dangers of a tyrannical government, we don't understand the dangers of deficit spending, we don't understand what it is when we are in debt to another. Those are valuable lessons not being taught in many schools today. It is long time we got back to the basics. If kids today leave high school as they do without a firm grasp of how to manage their finances then we have failed them just as we have failed them if we fail to teach them about the freedom they have because if we don't they will be less free than we are.

If we are to fix this we must undo much of the social engineering the government has been involved in the last 100 years. It will be hard on people I understand that, but we must be able to fail without a safety net if we are to return to greatness. Otherwise we will follow Rome's path.

Does this mean that we do not help our neighbor? No it does not, but that help has to become more personal each helping their neighbors and friends to the best of their ability and deciding where best that help can be rather than some faceless government bureaucrat hundreds and possibly thousands of miles away that has never met you or your neighbor or your family.

[LimpDisc]

If we are to fix this we must undo much of the social engineering the government has been involved in the last 100 years. It will be hard on people I understand that, but we must be able to fail without a safety net if we are to return to greatness. Otherwise we will follow Rome's path.

People on both sides have dug in too deep and are unwilling to budge. I thought Democrats were hard on Bush, but Republicans have taken it to a new level with Obama. What do you think happens if Obama is a one term president? The next Republican president will have it 10 times worse than Obama.

The only way we will fix this current mess is to follow Rome's path.

[momisery]

limp you are so right on! Todays battles set us up for tomorrows wars.. both our political parties are over the top battleing each other for POWER is what it is. Hence the reason to take business and money out of it. Government is sit up to protect our country and its people, not to be owned and controled by business or lobby group. There is so much to be gained from enstilling morales and honesty in EVERYONE top to bottom. How can we trust anyone to lead if the past only shows dishonesty? If we have honest people in office, they will have the concerns of the nation at heart everyday, or at least be honest about what the heck the bill they want is really all about. We should be able to ruin them if they are liars ..

[OhioFiler]

But that is an illusion. And a cruel one at that. Those people didn't "own" their homes -- not in the sense that they bought them with money that they earned. They were being given a home (or buying for next to nothing) through a subsidy that everyone else had to pay for through their taxes. Anyone can "own" a home if the government will give them a loan with payments spread out over 80 years and give a zero interest rate and then send them a check to make even that payment with. If we're going to give people homes through below market interest rates and terms that a free market would never accept, then let's just dispense with the fiction that they're paying for it and just give them the home outright and be done with it. If that's what we're going to do, fine. But call it what it is.

And you don't give people jobs that pay decent wages. People get them on their own by having a skill set and a work ethic that someone else is willing to pay a decent wage for.

All of this giving people homes and jobs is somewhat akin to giving people who are clearly not college material $100K in non-dischargeable student loans so that they can get a doctorate degree in art appreciation. If you reallywant to be compassionate, you would have been doing that person a favor by assisting him in getting training for a trade or skill that he was intellectually suited for that would actually give him a means to earn a living -- and buy a house that he really owns. Likewise, there are some people for whom renting is simply the best option. It's nothing to be ashamed of.

I realize that this sounds elitist or classist and a bunch of other politically incorrect "ists", but it's fact.

Stands and politely applauds this well written argument.

[OhioFiler]

The problem is the mentality in Washington. There are not many there that have had a real job in years and possibly decades. They don't abide by a budget and have everything pretty much handed to them. There are a few that don't fit that mold but they are very few.

The problem is that they do even the most liberal believe they can help raise people up by just giving them stuff. The problem is that you have to take it from someone to give it to them. Due to the waste and corruption inherit in government programs you have to bring more people down to raise a few up. That's what they don't really understand. You won't get everyone living at the middle class level even if you taxed the heck out of the rich, you'd barely get everyone to just above poverty due to the waste.

It's a decades long problem that has infiltrated both major parties and many of the minor ones. The Founding Fathers all believed that an education was key. However our educational system is in ruins. Throwing money at it doesn't work, because they've shown the kids that even if they do nothing the government will take care of them. So many of them have no motivation to improve themselves, thus the rising dropout rates and lower level of college graduates than we even had 15-20 years ago.

In order to progress, in order for us to do better, we must suffer consequences of wrong choices, unfortunately many government programs disavow this. They give a person a fish rather than teaching him to fish. That's the great problem with them.

The truth is that we need to fix many things in this nation. They will not be easy as we've had 2 generations pass that pretty much got used to getting whatever they wanted for practically nothing, those days are over. It is going to be a hard adjustment. But it goes in cycles, we've been here before and if history is of any worth we'll be here again. The reason it keeps repeating is that we don't learn our lesson and for some reason the generation that finally gets the lesson has trouble passing it to the next generation when times improve.

What's even sadder is that here in North Carolina the educational board what's to start teaching US History in the late 1870s, even after the great crash of 1870. They want to teach globilization and environmentalism (yes you know the climate change that the UN scientist admit they doctored the statistics for now). What we really need is greater emphasis on the Founding Fathers in education, as well as the hard periods of the country. Because we don't study them sufficiently we don't understand the dangers of a tyrannical government, we don't understand the dangers of deficit spending, we don't understand what it is when we are in debt to another. Those are valuable lessons not being taught in many schools today. It is long time we got back to the basics. If kids today leave high school as they do without a firm grasp of how to manage their finances then we have failed them just as we have failed them if we fail to teach them about the freedom they have because if we don't they will be less free than we are.

If we are to fix this we must undo much of the social engineering the government has been involved in the last 100 years. It will be hard on people I understand that, but we must be able to fail without a safety net if we are to return to greatness. Otherwise we will follow Rome's path.

Does this mean that we do not help our neighbor? No it does not, but that help has to become more personal each helping their neighbors and friends to the best of their ability and deciding where best that help can be rather than some faceless government bureaucrat hundreds and possibly thousands of miles away that has never met you or your neighbor or your family.

Brilliant.

[OhioFiler]

People on both sides have dug in too deep and are unwilling to budge. I thought Democrats were hard on Bush, but Republicans have taken it to a new level with Obama. What do you think happens if Obama is a one term president? The next Republican president will have it 10 times worse than Obama.

The only way we will fix this current mess is to follow Rome's path.

I have no interest in budging. I won't sacrifice my beliefs to appease you. There is no middle ground between liberalism and conservatism.

[LimpDisc]

I have no interest in budging. I won't sacrifice my beliefs to appease you. There is no middle ground between liberalism and conservatism.

Don't you mean that you won't sacrifice Rush Limbaugh's beliefs?

What a bunch of crap!!! There's middle ground in everything.

I had you pegged from day one. You're no different then your hero Rush Limbaugh!!!

[LimpDisc]

I have no interest in budging. I won't sacrifice my beliefs to appease you. There is no middle ground between liberalism and conservatism.

What happens if you don't get everything the way you want it? Do you wish for the country to fail unless you get everything your way? Listen, I have my own set of beliefs, but I know that I can't have everything the way I want it to be. I love my country too much to hope for it to fail.

[DeadManCrawling]

What happens if you don't get everything the way you want it? Do you wish for the country to fail unless you get everything your way? Listen, I have my own set of beliefs, but I know that I can't have everything the way I want it to be. I love my country too much to hope for it to fail.

I agree.

Without ANY middle ground, or room to compromise, we may as well turn off the lights, lock the place up and concede defeat as we revert to savagery.

Anyone seen The Road?

Not appealing. There ARE ways to stave off this impending collapse of our society and economy. But Americans are spoiled, and as illustrated above, there are millions of people who simply WON'T be satisfied until things are done THEIR way.

I have always had a tremendous disdain for folks who say things like, "There is your way and there is my way. My way is the right way. No compromise, and no stopping until I have forced EVERY LAST PERSON IN THE COUNTRY to abide by my system. It is for your own good, and you will thank me later."

Later is here, and there may not be very many tomorrows left.

[FLBK7]

People on both sides have dug in too deep and are unwilling to budge. I thought Democrats were hard on Bush, but Republicans have taken it to a new level with Obama. What do you think happens if Obama is a one term president? The next Republican president will have it 10 times worse than Obama.

The only way we will fix this current mess is to follow Rome's path.

Yup. Have you noticed how the presidency has recently become a "clean-up-the-mess-and-try-to-stop-the-train-derailment" job?

[FLBK7]

I agree with most of what you said MSbklawyer. Where I disagree is with only giving student loans to people who study practical subjects. There are plenty of jobs for people with good writing and critical thinking skills, and that is what a general liberal arts education will give you. I am a strong believer in the benefits (both tangible and intangible) of a liberal arts education.

I'm an older person with a BA in English and a MS in Business Administration. I'm constantly amazed by the number of professional people who cannot write a simple coherent paragraph. Back in my time there was no spell-check. Today, even with spell-check and all sorts of computerized tools, people still can't write proper English OR follow simple written directions to perform a task. I agree with BTS in that a liberal arts education has considerable tangible and intangible benefits.