Paypal has STUPID policies - Watch out!

[PaKettle]

I knew there was a site called paypalsucks.com and I never doubted that they must be a screwed up business but I needed to use them for ebay years ago so I signed up anyway.

Never had a problem with them.

Until last week.

Here's the set up:

I have 2 checking accounts connected to my paypal account, just in case one has money and the other doesn't then I will have a choice which to use. I have my Main bank account set up as the Default or Primary bank account so that if I send or receive money it will always go to that bank account unless I specifically choose the other one.

I sent some money to someone on 2 consecutive days.

On the 2nd day's transaction, for no reason, and without telling me, they arbitrarily chose the 2nd bank account to take the money from instead of the Primary one.

This of course caused an overdraft, as I did not intend for the money to come from that account, but rather from my Primary default account.

So I called Paypal: "Why did you suddenly take money from my secondary account instead of my Primary Account?"

They told me it was because I sent money to the same person 2 days in a row. There policy is that if that happens it might be fraud.

So, instead of just cancelling the transaction and contacting me, they just arbitrarily chose to take the money from the 2nd account.

I said, "But that is insane! It makes NO sense! If you suspected fraud, what good does it do to pay the money from a different account? They're STILL getting the money! Meanwhile, you overdrew my 2nd account!"

They of course had no sensible explanation. There is none.

So I am charged a $33 overdraft fee even though I did not originate the charge. I wrote Paypal to demand they pay the overdraft fee and they said it was not their fault.

How is this NOT their fault?

I am wondering if this happens often? Has it happened to anyone here? This seems like a Class Action Suit waiting to be filed! Anyone know an attorney who is looking to get involved filing a class action suit? I know that the payout on these suits always benefits the attorneys much more than it does the individuals who have been wronged. But in this case I'd just like to see Paypal PAY for its stupidity.

If this is indeed their Policy and not just a mistake, then there must be thousands of people who this has happened to.

By the way, read some of the horror stories at paypalsucks.com. You will find things there that are MUCH worse than this! They apparently do not have to follow the usual banking regulations because they are not technically a bank - even though they act as a bank and offer credit cards and atm cards. Go figure...

[BKOnce]

Yes, agree, they are INSANE! They were suspecting fraud when I tried to change my password. Keep ask wrong question/answer and never satisfy them, and now I am trying to close that account they won't let me to easy!

They're crazy!

[Flamingo]

Did you read all their fine print in all their rules and regulations? If it is mentioned there and you agreed to all those rules and regulations when you signed up, unfortunately it's your fault, not theirs. If that information is not listed in their policies, then you have a leg to stand on. When you sign up for Paypal or similar accounts, you agree to all their policies, rules and regulations and can click the "do not accept" button if you don't agree. Go back and read all their documentation that is online at their website.

[PaKettle]

see below (this posted twice for some reason)

[PaKettle]

Did you read all their fine print in all their rules and regulations? If it is mentioned there and you agreed to all those rules and regulations when you signed up, unfortunately it's your fault, not theirs. If that information is not listed in their policies, then you have a leg to stand on. When you sign up for Paypal or similar accounts, you agree to all their policies, rules and regulations and can click the "do not accept" button if you don't agree. Go back and read all their documentation that is online at their website.

Yeah I've noticed that companies are more and more using the fine print that they know no one reads to insert all kinds of insane policies and disclaimers and so on.

It's about time that a law is passed that requires them to put their insane policies and disclaimers right up front in easy to understand language rather than burying it in the "fine print".

Yes you do have the right to not agree to any bank's or any other institution's fine print. The problem is that most people have trouble understanding "legalese" and most people do not want to take the time to read all the fine print just to get to the Important Points buried in there.

So sure, it's our fault for not wanting to spend our time studying the fine print written in legalese.

But what if this site, for instance, and many others started putting unreasonable things in the fine print?

"It is hereby stated herein within this electronic document that if you choose to write responses on this web site to anyone who also agrees to hereby state within this web site any opinions or statements notwithstanding any meaning construed or otherwise misconstrued to mean whatsoever one might think it to mean or may misinterpet it to mean, thereby calling into question the legality or sanity of any stated response or statement, whereby one may state something herein that meets the above conditions, one is required to mail one Federal Reserve Note of the value of one dollar to this web site for each and every such statement, to be totalled at the end of each fiscal quarter. It is hereby agreed upon by you as the user of this site to abide by this agreement and you cannot opt out once you are opted in, without written notice mailed to the business address buried within the fine print here in within this site that you wish to thereby opt out. However you will still be held responsible for the above described payment for each statement you have made here on this site before such time as you have opted out in writing.

PLEASE CLICK HERE TO AGREE TO OUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND BEGIN USING THIS SITE."

****************

They know that most people will not read the fine print, they will just go to the bottom to click and begin using the site.

So it is our fault that we agree to ridiculous statements buried in fine print on web sites.

However it seems to me that burying ridiculous policies in fine print on web sites should not be legal. Anything that may be considered out of the ordinary (such as arbitrarily choosing to take money out of a secondary account without your knowledge) should be listed up front in bold.

[epiphany]

I'm really curious about this.

What would they have done if you didn't have two accounts linked? I don't.

I get paid from people on two separate days occassionaly when someone decides to buy something else before the first item has been shipped and I am sure that I have paid people twice in two days at least once. Never had this happen. Was this a large amount Pa K? Just trying to figure out what criteria they would use for doing that.

ep

[JRScott]

I'd remove the second account from your paypal account to keep it from happening again.

Sounds fishy , I only use my paypal account when I buy something off ebay. I've not used it much and it doesn't have much money in it. So not had this problem. I too haven't read all the fine print but I'd start going over it and see what it says.

[WhatMoney]

Where in the account agreement does it say that PayPal can arbitrarily decide to take funds from a Secondary backup account if you pay the same party 2 days in a row? I've read through the 20 pages of fine print and can find nothing like this.

Flamingo, since you are claiming it is in the fine print, please tell us which section it is in, unless you are just saying that IF it is in the fine print, Pa Kettle is screwed. Well sure, that's obvious, but what if it is not there?

PayPal does list a priority order of funding sources when you pay someone from your account - but I don't see anything about bank account priorities if you have more than one bank account and the Primary bank account has sufficient funds to cover the payment. Only if the primary account is rejected as NSF should PP go to the next account or funding source - at least that is what I thought.

Anyway this is all real disturbing to me, since I also have two bank accounts listed as backup for my Premier account. Well, at least I did until I cancelled the 2nd backup account a few minutes ago.

I was warned by my bank manager to be careful with PayPal in general, as she has seen some real horror stories of PP cleaning out checking accounts, overdraft protection funds, and then the savings account, if they were linked at the bank. She said bank customers should have a separate checking acccount for PayPal transactions ONLY, with no overdraft protection or linked savings account, in case PayPal or an ID thief decides to hit you.

By the way, I did read in the lengthy fine print that PayPal can also cancel your account if they don't like your credit report score. Another arbitrary rule with no metrics - so if you have a bankruptcy or defaulted credit card accounts on your CR and have a PayPal account, they can cancel you whenever they feel like it for violating their "restricted activity" section. NICE.

[Flamingo]

But what if this site, for instance, and many others started putting unreasonable things in the fine print?


This site doesn't handle money or cost you money to join - if it did, you would see a disclaimer upon joining. If one doesn't read it before one joins, that's up to the joiner. Reading the fine print nowadays has become almost a requirement to protect one's booty in today's ligitous society. Of course no one wants to take the time to read it - but it protects the company who requires it.

"It is hereby stated herein within this electronic document that if you choose to write responses on this web site to anyone who also agrees to hereby state within this web site any opinions or statements notwithstanding any meaning construed or otherwise misconstrued to mean whatsoever one might think it to mean or may misinterpet it to mean, thereby calling into question the legality or sanity of any stated response or statement, whereby one may state something herein that meets the above conditions, one is required to mail one Federal Reserve Note of the value of one dollar to this web site for each and every such statement, to be totalled at the end of each fiscal quarter. It is hereby agreed upon by you as the user of this site to abide by this agreement and you cannot opt out once you are opted in, without written notice mailed to the business address buried within the fine print here in within this site that you wish to thereby opt out. However you will still be held responsible for the above described payment for each statement you have made here on this site before such time as you have opted out in writing.

PLEASE CLICK HERE TO AGREE TO OUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND BEGIN USING THIS SITE."

****************

They know that most people will not read the fine print, they will just go to the bottom to click and begin using the site.

Then that is the joiner's fault. The fine print is there to protect the company owning the site and allowing you to join. Where there are financial transactions, you will always see the disclaimer pop up asking you to read it. A forum such as this which is free on the internet has no financial transactions and can be joined by anyone. However there are rules that one must abide by and if you don't follow them, you can be banned. Is not reading them an excuse?
So it is our fault that we agree to ridiculous statements buried in fine print on web sites.

However it seems to me that burying ridiculous policies in fine print on web sites should not be legal. Anything that may be considered out of the ordinary (such as arbitrarily choosing to take money out of a secondary account without your knowledge) should be listed up front in bold.

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]It is very legal and one should take the time to actually read the fine print, whether it is for joining Paypal or for a home/car purchase. One must remember that the fine print is there to protect the company. If one does not agree with the content, one does not have to accept the offer, rules or regulations. It is there somewhere in black and white and they can refer back to it. HOWEVER, as in your situation, if the information is not listed on their web site or in any disclaimer agreed to by you (sometimes it is good to print them out when you agree to them), then you have a leg to stand on in fighting your situation. All I am stating is that this happens a lot and one needs to start reading the disclaimers and policies/procedures of a company that are offerred prior to joining or accepting the offer. You protect yourself doing that also. What are you agreeing to when you click on that acceptance button? Next time one better check in today's world.

I cannot agree with anyone who says you don't have to/shouldn't have to read the fine print because it is inconvenient. They should be printed out and kept on file with the information from the company, website or any place that handles your money and/or payments on a bill. If one doesn't want to protect oneself, that is that person's own decision and should not be blamed on the company or on other people. If either of us were business or company owners, you would have the same disclaimers, rules and regulations you would required to be signed and agreed to to legally protect yourself, your company and your shareholders.[/FONT]

[Flamingo]

[QUOTE=WhatMoney;152882]
Flamingo, since you are claiming it is in the fine print, please tell us which section it is in, unless you are just saying that IF it is in the fine print, Pa Kettle is screwed. Well sure, that's obvious, but what if it is not there?

I DID NOT state it was in the fine print (please reread my posting). I said IF IT IS NOT in the fine print, then he has a leg to stand on.

[PaKettle]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]It is very legal and one should take the time to actually read the fine print, whether it is for joining Paypal or for a home/car purchase. One must remember that the fine print is there to protect the company. If one does not agree with the content, one does not have to accept the offer, rules or regulations. It is there somewhere in black and white and they can refer back to it. HOWEVER, as in your situation, if the information is not listed on their web site or in any disclaimer agreed to by you (sometimes it is good to print them out when you agree to them), then you have a leg to stand on in fighting your situation. All I am stating is that this happens a lot and one needs to start reading the disclaimers and policies/procedures of a company that are offerred prior to joining or accepting the offer. You protect yourself doing that also. What are you agreeing to when you click on that acceptance button? Next time one better check in today's world.

I cannot agree with anyone who says you don't have to/shouldn't have to read the fine print because it is inconvenient. They should be printed out and kept on file with the information from the company, website or any place that handles your money and/or payments on a bill. If one doesn't want to protect oneself, that is that person's own decision and should not be blamed on the company or on other people. If either of us were business or company owners, you would have the same disclaimers, rules and regulations you would required to be signed and agreed to to legally protect yourself, your company and your shareholders.[/FONT]

You must work in the legal field or be a tax guy or something...

These companies know that the average Joe does not read all that stuff and never will. So unless there are laws to protect people from burying ridiculous policies in the fine print, they will take advantage of the average Joe. And it will be our fault for not being willing to sit and read all that stuff.

However, in this case, I really doubt that this is in the fine print, and I'm going to file a complaint with the FTC or whoever oversees complaints against Paypal.

I still think this is a Class Action Suit waiting to happen.

[Flamingo]

You must work in the legal field or be a tax guy or something...

These companies know that the average Joe does not read all that stuff and never will. So unless there are laws to protect people from burying ridiculous policies in the fine print, they will take advantage of the average Joe. And it will be our fault for not being willing to sit and read all that stuff.

However, in this case, I really doubt that this is in the fine print, and I'm going to file a complaint with the FTC or whoever oversees complaints against Paypal.

I still think this is a Class Action Suit waiting to happen.

How'd ya guess? :-) Before you take unnecessary action, take some time now to read all the documents in the paypal website after you log in so you are in your account. Pay particular attention to the accounts section but go through everything in there. If it's stated in there, filing a suit will not do a bit of good. However, letters of complaint to PayPal or complaining/blogging online if there are any complaint forums might help get them to be more clear about their policies and/or procedures when applying for an account. Never "doubt" that anything is in the fine print unless you actually check out the fine print. You will just embarrass yourself or others if they have that policy in place and you agreed to its terms and conditions when you applied. If it is not in there, print out everything that is in there and do not alert PayPal via any web postings or letters about your intentions. You don't want them to go in there and change the wording...

Everyone needs to know and should know that when you sign up for any account, you agree to some kind of terms and conditions. How do you think many scam artists get away with a lot of things....they assume you will not read the fine print...

[WhatMoney]

Hey Pa Kettle, go after those bastards if you've got a case. Contact an NACA attorney and see if there is any money in it for him. (Not you, but the lawyer, who has to feed his poor family.)

It's not the literal 20 pdf pages of the PayPal User Agreement that you need to read, but also the extra 20 pages of changes to the User Agreement that PP has available only after you log into your account. They change the UA every month, always to the advantage of PP. Latest change is you can only sue PP in just two counties in the country, one in Nebraska and one in California. You must agree to that before signing up with them now!

And then add another 6 pages just dedicated to your Debit card, and then their privacy rules and acceptable usage rules too. About 60 pages of legalese to plow through so you "know your rights" before you sign on.

Does anyone really think everyone opening a PayPal account should spend 8 hours studying the lengthy and constantly changing User Agreement before signing up? Perhaps everyone should read "War & Peace" and pass a 4 hour exam on the book, before opening a checking account, or filling up your gas tank.

In any case, I have read all the PP agreements, and there is nothing in there like you have experienced. But as pointed out, they may add a new section just for you before you can sue them.

[Flamingo]

Does anyone really think everyone opening a PayPal account should spend 8 hours studying the lengthy and constantly changing User Agreement before signing up? Perhaps everyone should read "War & Peace" and pass a 4 hour exam on the book, before opening a checking account, or filling up your gas tank.

I agree with your entire posting but I disagree with the snippet above. We all know that everything comes with fine print. If there is something in the fine print we disagree with, we don't have to purchase the item, join or accept an offer. We cannot claim we were ignorant/lazy and did not read the stipulations involved. Let's just say it doesn't really back you up if there is a problem and wouldn't get very far in a lawsuit. No one either really reads all the jargon that comes on those little sheets with your credit card bill or any other bill to your house. But it is a notice of a change to something in your credit card or other bill that if you don't read, it's your own problem when the change takes effect and you call and complain about it. It is clearly indicated on your bill and on that statement.

I have a PayPal account and read several sections of the Legal Documents which include the "Sending Money" section. They do state several things in there which could protect them in the event they suspect suspicious activity in someone's account and that may take their own steps and use their own judgment in that event. It doesn't really state what those are. They probably have the option to do what they want if they suspect fraud but an attorney experienced in contracts and business law would have to review the entire situation to see what was told to PaKettle.

I believe PaKettle could fight this but a class action could take many, many years....I have seen class actions go several years and still have several years to go due to all sorts of delays and discovery. PaKettle also has the option of complaing to higher authority in PayPal about his situation. Most companies try to keep good customers but I don't believe they really can reimburse overdraft fees if one doesn't have money lined up in their own personal accounts linked to PayPal. While there could have been a mistake as to the transfer from the wrong account, the owner of the account is responsible for having money in their checking or savings account from which the money is to be withdrawn and sent. Their chain of withdrawals lists that if there is a zero balance or not enough in one account from which to transfer the money (or the priority account), they will go to the next listed account. They take from the priority account first if set up as such unless the owner indicates otherwise. If there are no funds in there, it goes to the next listed option. That is clearly stated in the User Agreement online.

In this situatoin, PaKettle I would certainly go a step higher in the chain of command at PayPal and complain to someone above the customer service rep you spoke with and see what, if anything, they would do in this situation. However, from some of the things listed in the User Agreement, it appears they have themselves well protect in a lot of agreas as to decisions.

Best of luck to you....