Charitable Contributions Question For All

[Bandit]

It surprized me actually. I just thought I would get the same old guilt trip run around I have always heard about it.

I think a lot of people just believe things but do not know for sure why & never question things. Nothing wrong with having something good to believe in & something good to look forward to even when it does not always make sense or you cant prove it

[allavdj]

I'm glad I was able to be more clear that time around. Harder than you think trying to explain your belief system on paper

[Bandit]

So....there ya go....hopefully that is more clear....maybe.

Thanks allavdj. At the very least you are being honest in your replies and that I have a lot of respect for. Thanks again for clearing up my questions.

[allavdj]

I dont care if I get it, understand or support it either. That isn't the point.

you still did not answer my questions about your religion. all I keep seeing is dogma and that is fine but why cant you answer the questions?

Just so you know, I dont care if you give 100% to your church or if you go BK on your church payment. I am not questioning your moral obligation to your god. I am questioning why you rip people off in order to keep up your moral obligation?

According the the bible (yeah I know) debt is also a sin. I have come to terms with that and I am more than willing to admit that I really screwed up. We continue to give because we will eventually be forgiven of our debt through the process of bankruptcy and have already been forgiven for the sin itself. I hold no moral high ground here.


so what you are saying is, it is ok to make a bunch of debt to people & not pay them back as long as you do the church debt donation thing?
why dont you have the same moral obligation to pay back your debts to people?

As I said above, debt is a sin. So to answer your question directly, no it is not right to make a bunch of debt and not pay them back and the act of giving does not forgive the sin and I do feel a moral obligation to pay back what is owed, but that simply may not be possible.

why do you have a spiritual & moral obliagtion to give to your god debt but not to the people debt you say you will pay back? Is it because your god is more important than the people?

Simply, yes...God is more important that the people. And I do have moral obligations to both. If I had an infinite amount of time I would gladly pay back in full all debts owed.

you took a scripture & tried to turn into a tithing 10% thing that had nothing to do with tithing. THAT IS WHAT I CALLED YOU ON. you also tried to make it sound like people are supposed to give their very last penny just because of that verse.

I said nothing about a 10% tithing thing. What I did say is that god instructs us to give and to give with a willing and humble heart. It is the act of giving that is important, not the amount. The point of the story is: It doesn't matter how much you give, it's how you give it. The widow was humble and willing to give all she had, whereas the others gave large gifts out of the need to "show off".

& whatever happened to the dogma about the more money you give to the church the more money god will give you? you know those preachers who say that? or dont you believe in that?

I dunno you tell me. I don't remember seeing anywhere in the bible where God says he will give us money if we give him money. What he does promise us is that if we follow his commands that we will have a home in heaven.

and for the record, I dont give two cents what you do with your money. Really I don't. It is the inconsistency that is in question.

So....there ya go....hopefully that is more clear....maybe.

[Bandit]

Having gone through a big income loss and then a Chapter 13, I have some input as to charitable contributions during bankruptcy or the period prior to filing. We stopped church donations and giving of any kind at that time. We just could not continue to contribute to our church or even think of donating money to any organization. Our priority at that time was ourselves and our family and putting food on the table. I actually called our parish pastor and explained our situation. He advised us there was no need to contribiute and when times were better we could start again. You can actually volunteer services instead of donating money and it won't cost you a dime except maybe the transportation to/from the church or other nonprofit organization. Sometimes they need volunteers in person moreso than donations.

I cannot see having a family and other priorities/bills during a Chapter 13 and donating money to any organization. The time will come afterwards when you can make it up if you wish or just start where you left off.

Hi Flamingo,

I am glad to see common sense here. I would have handled it the same way.

It sounds like you have good preacher to turn to as well.

I also agree with you about donating time or your services instead of $$. Very Wise to still give what you have to give from the heart.

[Bandit]

From the OP:

"What I don't understand, don't get at all, is how anyone who cannot pay the bills and is having a hard time with daily living expenses justifies (to one's own self--not talking about justifying the expense for BK) making any charitable contributions to anyone at all."

The simple answer to this question from a religious standpoint (ie why my wife and I continue to give) is:

We feel a moral and spiritual obligation to give back a portion of what has been given to us.

It really doesn't matter if you get it, like it, or support it because it is between my wife, myself, and God.

.

I dont care if I get it, understand or support it either. That isn't the point.

you still did not answer my questions about your religion. all I keep seeing is dogma and that is fine but why cant you answer the questions?

Just so you know, I dont care if you give 100% to your church or if you go BK on your church payment. I am not questioning your moral obligation to your god. I am questioning why you rip people off in order to keep up your moral obligation?


so what you are saying is, it is ok to make a bunch of debt to people & not pay them back as long as you do the church debt donation thing?
why dont you have the same moral obligation to pay back your debts to people?

why do you have a spiritual & moral obliagtion to give to your god debt but not to the people debt you say you will pay back? Is it because your god is more important than the people?

you took a scripture & tried to turn into a tithing 10% thing that had nothing to do with tithing. THAT IS WHAT I CALLED YOU ON. you also tried to make it sound like people are supposed to give their very last penny just because of that verse.

& whatever happened to the dogma about the more money you give to the church the more money god will give you? you know those preachers who say that? or dont you believe in that?

and for the record, I dont give two cents what you do with your money. Really I don't. It is the inconsistency that is in question.

[allavdj]

From the OP:

"What I don't understand, don't get at all, is how anyone who cannot pay the bills and is having a hard time with daily living expenses justifies (to one's own self--not talking about justifying the expense for BK) making any charitable contributions to anyone at all."

The simple answer to this question from a religious standpoint (ie why my wife and I continue to give) is:

We feel a moral and spiritual obligation to give back a portion of what has been given to us.

It really doesn't matter if you get it, like it, or support it because it is between my wife, myself, and God.

And PLEASE don't assume that since you had a bad run in or two with a preacher or church that all aspects of every church are corrupt. There are good ones and there are bad ones, it's each persons choice which to attend and support.

[Bandit]

I'm sorry, but this is taking it a bit far - the widow didn't give her shoes, nor those of her children (if she even had any). Giving is one of many spiritual disciplines taught in the Bible, and whether a Christian practices the disciplines has no bearing on their standing with God in the eternal sense, but many find that the practice of spiritual disciplines does affect their day to day life in a positive way.

The originator of this thread was asking why different people might continue to give in the face of BK. Some reasons are faith, and there are many others. No one is asking you to convert to their way of thinking, so why bash their beliefs? I don't think that was the intent of the thread, and if you'll look, no one is bashing you for not giving, if that's the case.

I am not a christian but as a member I am still entitled to give my opinon and ask valid questions. I dont see anything that says only christians can speak. I did not bash anyones beliefs but you could try to answer the questions

why would you create debt & at the same time give to charity when you cant give back what you borrow? what exactly do you gain by doing that? could you please answer the question? you are ripping off one person to give to someone else. please explain.

I am sure that is in part what the OP is getting at.

[Bandit]

This is an interesting question that has turned into a religious dialog. First, preachers can be homeless and hungry too..not all drive Lincolns. In fact, most of the preachers I have known are living very meagerly and second even drunks and bums are sometimes hungry. No one is less of a person than another. Those who place worth on a person based on lower socioeconomic status are no better than those who value the attention given to the wealthy and greedy.

Your interpretation of those verses is what I get also. It was about the rich belittling the poor & he made it clear that she had done more than the rich. It has nothing to do with tithing OR begging in fact tithing was never mentioned in it.

I just want to add that religion is indeed a money making business & there have been a plethora of preachers who have taken advantage of poverty stricken people & thrown into jail for it. So we can also view it as a business & a crime. IN the old days I think they called them snake oil? In fact most of the preachers I have known do drive linclons or mercedes, bmw -so you are right they dont all drive lincolns.

I have had my dealings with drunks & let me say I gave more to a drunkard who I let him stay here three times only to be taken advantage of. It aint happening again.

My mother used to take us to this church for awhile & she gave what she could in offerings. The preacher told her that if she wants to be a member she had to pay him 10% of dads wages plus 10% of what she makes. He made it very clear that no matter how much offering she gave she would never be a member. I bet you already know what I think about that.

[Trixie007]

I dont see anything in that biblical standpoint that says god demands people to keep doing what that widow did one time...especially a tithe like you mention.

are you suggesting that when you are out of house & home & no food for your children you should take off your childs shoes & your own shoes & give them to someone else to keep up with your tenth?

I'm sorry, but this is taking it a bit far - the widow didn't give her shoes, nor those of her children (if she even had any). Giving is one of many spiritual disciplines taught in the Bible, and whether a Christian practices the disciplines has no bearing on their standing with God in the eternal sense, but many find that the practice of spiritual disciplines does affect their day to day life in a positive way.

The originator of this thread was asking why different people might continue to give in the face of BK. Some reasons are faith, and there are many others. No one is asking you to convert to their way of thinking, so why bash their beliefs? I don't think that was the intent of the thread, and if you'll look, no one is bashing you for not giving, if that's the case.

[MomIcantFindmy]

This is an interesting question that has turned into a religious dialog. First, preachers can be homeless and hungry too..not all drive Lincolns. In fact, most of the preachers I have known are living very meagerly and second even drunks and bums are sometimes hungry. No one is less of a person than another. Those who place worth on a person based on lower socioeconomic status are no better than those who value the attention given to the wealthy and greedy.

That said...I did not give anything when we were hurting financially. We are building back up now and I am volunteering at a food bank handing out food. I hope one day to be able to give money again to charity. Remember a gift is a gift...once you give away money or anything you have no say in where it goes.

[Bandit]

I'll break it down to why people continue to tithe when they are otherwise broke.

Mark 12:41-44 (New International Version)

The Widow's Offering
41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[a]worth only a fraction of a penny.[b]

I dont see anything in that biblical standpoint that says god demands people to keep doing what that widow did one time...especially a tithe like you mention.

are you suggesting that when you are out of house & home & no food for your children you should take off your childs shoes & your own shoes & give them to someone else to keep up with your tenth?


I feel quite certain the preacher in his lincoln continental will do just fine without the cardboard box & one penny you would donate to charity because you have nothing else to give.

[allavdj]

I'll break it down to why people continue to tithe when they are otherwise broke.

Mark 12:41-44 (New International Version)

The Widow's Offering
41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[a]worth only a fraction of a penny.[b]

[Bandit]

Okay, I must admit that I am puzzled every time I see a charitable contribution or tithing (I think I spelled that right) question on this forum. Usually the author is asking if it is an allowable expense.

What I don't understand, don't get at all, is how anyone who cannot pay the bills and is having a hard time with daily living expenses justifies (to one's own self--not talking about justifying the expense for BK) making any charitable contributions to anyone at all.

In my town, I am asked for money from the homeless (and sometimes those only pretending to be) almost every day. I don't and can't give. That is not to say I have NEVER (I occasionally have given them food/water but never money) but for the most part NO. I need to come up with my own basics and rent and it's tough.

For those of you who give on a regular basis but still can't pay your bills....why do you do it? Is it a duty? Is it ingrained? Please, I am not trying to insult anyone, I am just trying to understand.

Call me ignorant or selfish, but I just don't get it.

ep

I would never give money to anything that has anything to do with religion because I do not believe you need religion to do & be good. I have also heard that you have to give 10% to the preacher man or else you go to hell.

I dont know the answer for the homeless. A guy asked me if he could stack my firewood about two weeks ago & I told him if I could afford to pay people to stack the wood I would not be burning wood to begin with...then he went through my garbage cans. There was a great article on this lately (cant remember where) telling people to use extreme caution when people come to you asking to do odd jobs for money.


The last homeless guy I offered a meal to, from McDonalds, who was asking for money & he turned the food down because he was a drunken slob who only wanted me to buy him booze. That aint ever happening. The other time there was a guy on the top of the hill with a fake broken down van begging for gas money. I dropped him a few bucks, then saw him repeatedly at the top of the hill with his fake broken down van probably raking in more money that I make.

When I give I want to know that 100% of it will be going to something honest & I do not view most of religion, especially preachers & most stinky bums as honest.

I put food in the pantries & some old clothes in the boxes around town. I make small donations & give the tin cans to animal shelters. I go out of my way to help the elderly that I know & give them rides places. Things like that.

I think your question is based on church people who pay out 10% every week. that is debated & argued among church people because a lot of people do not believe the new testament tells people to do that. Rather to give as you can. I think a good sign to stop paying tithes would be when they turn your electric or gas off or when a bank goes to sue you, or your house goes into foreclosure for not paying them back.

2 cents

[Mi Bankruptcy]

There is a feeling you get when you give when you know you shouldn't or can't. If you've never done this.. You wouldn't understand. If you have and you don't get a different feeling KNOWING you sacrificed to give something when you know you shouldn't have or can't then it can't be explained why people contribute when in a financial stress or brink of starvation.

Last year during Christmas Church I threw $20.00 into the offering plate. My wife about beat me. It was our last bit of money. I wouldn't get paid for another week. Would you know it.. Her Grand father gave everyone $50.00 for Christmas. Her Dad gave each kid 100.00 for Christmas. They never give out cash. I am not a bible thumper but something told me to give the money I had on me.. and everything would be alright.

Also.. sometimes giving or sacrificing takes your thoughts off your own troubles for a little while.