Charitable Contributions Question For All

[Trixie007]

Sorry if I'm late chiming in, but didn't really see my response represented and I'm a newbie!

DH and I operate under a few assumptions, 1) everything we have belongs to God and is given to us for our use 2) giving sacrificially reminds us of the sacrifice that was made for us, 3) our beliefs are that the tithe we give is to be first fruits, not what's left over. For us it is a question of obedience to what we believe is right.

I think this is definitely a personal choice, and another person might make a different choice and that's fine - and I don't think that God cares! After all, He doesn't need the money

Why we continued giving when things got bad:
1) Under the first point listed above, obviously we have not made the best choices. Our stewardship stank! The real estate market going bad, my employment going south (real estate industry ha-ha) - not really in our control, but we definitely put ourselves in a place where we could start sinking. When we finally realized that things were not getting better and we had to stop borrowing to get us through, no matter how we looked at it, it remained a fact that it doesn't really belong to us anyway. Since June of this year we have been living off of my DH's income and money from selling stuff off (great way to declutter your house lol), and we have finally started sticking to a realistic budget , which includes very small payments to cc companies (trying to hold off lawsuits) and our tithe. If nothing else, our financial (temporary) ruin has taught us some pretty important lessons!

2) The fact is, even though we do give 10% off of our gross, and we give offerings as we are able if there's a little left in the grocery money - it's not enough to make the difference of BK or no BK! Now, without our contributions, we would likely be filing 13 instead of 7, but it wouldn't keep us out altogether. Compared to the payments on our two upside down houses ($8.5k/mo) and the now outrageous minimums on cc's ($9k+ now that they've jacked the rates up), the tithe seems miniscule and I am still pleasingly plump, so must be getting enough to eat.

Hope that makes a little bit of sense. To be super, super clear - I am in no way, shape or form saying that if a Christian does not do this they are wrong and it's not about guilt or obligation. As I said earlier, it's a personal decision, and my God doesn't care about your money, only your heart...

[justbroke]

personal opinion: everyone should do what they can to ensure their own survival, and then go an extra step to help ensure someone elses - even if it only amounts to the cost of a starbuck's mocha latte grande primo or wtfe, a month. it helps keep us all honest and humble.

I third that!

[FLBK7]

personal opinion: everyone should do what they can to ensure their own survival, and then go an extra step to help ensure someone elses - even if it only amounts to the cost of a starbuck's mocha latte grande primo or wtfe, a month. it helps keep us all honest and humble.

I second that. Well said!

[soleprop]

agreed. also, keep in mind that our nation's poor are still wealthy in comparison to most nations. most of us who are in bk straights aren't even considered poor, we're just poorly financed/organized.

personal opinion: everyone should do what they can to ensure their own survival, and then go an extra step to help ensure someone elses - even if it only amounts to the cost of a starbuck's mocha latte grande primo or wtfe, a month. it helps keep us all honest and humble.

[justbroke]

I cannot see having a family and other priorities/bills during a Chapter 13 and donating money to any organization. The time will come afterwards when you can make it up if you wish or just start where you left off.

But, in a Chapter 13, where you are over the medium income, it doesn't come out of your "allowable" expenses. So, it doesn't take food off the table (so to speak).

I think this is where there is confusion.

[Flamingo]

Having gone through a big income loss and then a Chapter 13, I have some input as to charitable contributions during bankruptcy or the period prior to filing. We stopped church donations and giving of any kind at that time. We just could not continue to contribute to our church or even think of donating money to any organization. Our priority at that time was ourselves and our family and putting food on the table. I actually called our parish pastor and explained our situation. He advised us there was no need to contribiute and when times were better we could start again. You can actually volunteer services instead of donating money and it won't cost you a dime except maybe the transportation to/from the church or other nonprofit organization. Sometimes they need volunteers in person moreso than donations.

I cannot see having a family and other priorities/bills during a Chapter 13 and donating money to any organization. The time will come afterwards when you can make it up if you wish or just start where you left off.

[justbroke]

the way i've seen it is the $5 or $10 i give to whatever charity maybe 2-3 times a year would not have made a dent or noticeable diff in my financial situation or in my debts with my creditors but it makes a big difference to the charity (as it gets added in with the peanuts everyone else is pitching them too).

I think that's what I was trying to say too, but you are much more eloquent.

While my amount is in hundreds of dollars, monthly, it's all relative. It's only 3% (or 3 cents) out of every dollar I earn.

That 3% would not satisfy even one of my hungry creditors (pun intended), but it certainly satisfies hundreds of indigent people.

I would not equate filing Bankruptcy with being indigent. (Perhaps in Chapter 7, it is more likely, but certainly not as likely in Chapter 13 filings)

[soleprop]

the way i've seen it is the $5 or $10 i give to whatever charity maybe 2-3 times a year would not have made a dent or noticeable diff in my financial situation or in my debts with my creditors but it makes a big difference to the charity (as it gets added in with the peanuts everyone else is pitching them too).

[justbroke]

I believe that you reap what you sow but you can't sow what isn't there. The lawyer analogy doesn't quite cut it in far as the question because I am sure that wasn't close to his last dime. This isn't about random acts of kindness...though I do believe in and appreciate those.

My point with the lawyer was... he didn't have to do it (period). Yet he did. Something in him tells him that it's better to be kind, because he hopes that someday, someone, in kind, returns the favor... without asking.

So question for you, JB, you are broke but still giving 400 a month to charity? Is that correct? My question would be why?

No, I'm not broke... hence that's why I'm in a Chapter 13. I make above the medium income for my state... and actually more than 3 times the medium.

So... here's my answer...

• I'm not technically broke.
• I'm logically broke.
• My income is enough to pay my creditors > 80% back
• If I didn't have to pay the TEE 10% a month, I'd pay back my creditors 90% or more!!!
• If I had paid my unsecureds normally (no Chapter 13)... I'd have LOWER payments and would be paying most of them over 20+ years (I know... a bad thing overall, but could have paid the minimum payment)
• Had I chosen Debt Management, I would be paying back on 60-70%, not 80%... and at a lower payment
• The contributions I give are 2.65% of my 2005 income, and just 3.25% of my current annual income
• So, I contend that the money is there.

The math is easy for me. I could stop all charitable payments and just hand the money over to the TEE. The TEE would take 10% ($40) and split $360 pro rata amongst my 40 creditors. That would be about $9 a month each

(Technically, some creditors would get less than $0.50/month and one or two would get more than $80/month because of the pro rata thing.)

OR, I can help people. VERY easy decision for me. (And I thought this through very carefully.)

[epiphany]

Pardon me for jumping in. The $400 a month I give to a charitable organization that does wonders Worldwide... is nothing compared to the $6k/month I was paying to stay in just ONE of my homes.

I guess you have to measure it out for yourself. You have to say... "if I was not able to afford things, no job, and needed help... who would help me?"

If you're answer is the Government. Bzzzzzt! Next contestant please.

I'm one of those people that believe in the "reap what you sow". I perform random acts of kindness... like putting a quarter into meters that just ran out. I couldn't believe it when I saw one of the lawyers at the Bankruptcy court doing this. I just had to talk to him after that.

You know why, because everyone thinks lawyers are scum and pigs and greedy. To see him do something so humble. he told me that he does it for all the cars parked in front of the courthouse. Many of the lawyers do it. It's a friend helping a friend. He then pointed to a meter maid across the street ticketing cars, and made some snide remark about "it must be that time of the month". Priceless.

I believe that you reap what you sow but you can't sow what isn't there. The lawyer analogy doesn't quite cut it in far as the question because I am sure that wasn't close to his last dime. This isn't about random acts of kindness...though I do believe in and appreciate those.

So question for you, JB, you are broke but still giving 400 a month to charity? Is that correct? My question would be why?

If the answer is for the karma, I will accept that. I will accept any answers, I just don't believe I have gotten one yet that answers the question I originally asked.

ep

[justbroke]

What I don't get is people that are doing it when they truly can't.

Actually, they can. Since the law and the DMI calculation allows the deduction, they continue to do it. It's not as if the money comes out from what you are allowed monthly. If you ended up in a Chapter 13 but below the medium income, I could see where paying it would hurt.

In a Chapter 13, above the medium income, and having DMI, what does it hurt to continue giving to the charitable organization? The code provides for it, and it does good. The Government knows that these charitable organizations cover the HUGE gap between social programs and what's actually needed to feed, clothe and shelter people.

I would love it if the Code would take your average monthly charitable contribution and make that same monthly payment while you're in a Chapter 13. It would work for me!

The only other choice for Congress is to allow the continuation of these contribution... or beef up social programs (especially as Bankruptcies soar). We all know that they are trying to do the opposite in Congress (reduce spending). Almost $1.5trillion dollars of the Federal Budget goes to Social Programs. It wouldn't bother me to spend $500billion more. (But I guess that's a different discussion.)

[epiphany]

In my family we have always strongly supported a local charitable organization (non-religious) that does wonders for the community. In my pre-BK days I usually contributed $25/week. When things got rough I stopped giving, of course. But as I have gotten my finances in shape again I have resumed my weekly contributions, although it's only $10/week now. I also volunteer my time a few times a year.

I get a lot of personal satisfaction doing this. I never stopped to wonder "why" I do it until ep raised the question. I guess we were just brought up that way and old habits die hard.

Okay, I get that, but again, I think the point was missed. YOU stopped giving when you couldn't. Now that you can, you are doing it again. I get that.

What I don't get is people that are doing it when they truly can't.

ep

[justbroke]

Is the money donated by people in dires straights (ie, forced to consider bankruptcy) not enough to make a difference to their own well being were they to keep it in their pockets?

Pardon me for jumping in. The $400 a month I give to a charitable organization that does wonders Worldwide... is nothing compared to the $6k/month I was paying to stay in just ONE of my homes.

I guess you have to measure it out for yourself. You have to say... "if I was not able to afford things, no job, and needed help... who would help me?"

If you're answer is the Government. Bzzzzzt! Next contestant please.

I'm one of those people that believe in the "reap what you sow". I perform random acts of kindness... like putting a quarter into meters that just ran out. I couldn't believe it when I saw one of the lawyers at the Bankruptcy court doing this. I just had to talk to him after that.

You know why, because everyone thinks lawyers are scum and pigs and greedy. To see him do something so humble. he told me that he does it for all the cars parked in front of the courthouse. Many of the lawyers do it. It's a friend helping a friend. He then pointed to a meter maid across the street ticketing cars, and made some snide remark about "it must be that time of the month". Priceless.

[FLBK7]

In my family we have always strongly supported a local charitable organization (non-religious) that does wonders for the community. In my pre-BK days I usually contributed $25/week. When things got rough I stopped giving, of course. But as I have gotten my finances in shape again I have resumed my weekly contributions, although it's only $10/week now. I also volunteer my time a few times a year.

I get a lot of personal satisfaction doing this. I never stopped to wonder "why" I do it until ep raised the question. I guess we were just brought up that way and old habits die hard.

[epiphany]

Many people feel it's important to donate money as a matter of religious principle. The BK code allows for this by letting people donate up to 15% of their income, no questions asked.

The reality is most people in straitened circumstances don't donate enough money to charity/religious organizations to make any real difference to their creditors.

Thanks, I guess my question is: why it that important?

Put the creditors aside, this is not about them or what the BK code allows. It's about feeding yourself/family and keeping a roof over your head.

Is the money donated by people in dires straights (ie, forced to consider bankruptcy) not enough to make a difference to their own well being were they to keep it in their pockets?

ep