Goodbye, middle class

[backtoschool]

The fact that a middle class lifestyle ever got to the point where EVERYONE feels entitled to those LUXURIES was and is pure insanity. Even the poor having running water, air conditioning, cars, cable, etc in our country. I am not against anyone having anything they earn, but if we think the planet can support everyone having these things I think we will be in for a rude awakening.

The living standard may be in a downward spiral compared to the excessives of the last half century, but there was a time in the not too distant past where everyone didn't have these things and many of the things we enjoy. We got spoiled in the recent past and need to accept sanity. Everyone may not get to have each child with their own bedroom. The rest of the world doesn't. They survive and thrive sharing bedrooms in houses without formal dining rooms, and without second cars, even first cars.

Compare standards of living objectively to 50 years ago and we aren't really in a downwards spiral, just compared to the last 50 years of a the credit fueled bubble that has yet fully pop.

Air conditioning and heat are not luxuries unless you live in extremely moderate climates that do not require them. People didn't have most of the items you mention because the technology didn't exist yet. Having cable tv now is analogous to having a radio back in the so called "glory days" that you are harkening back to. Your strange theory is not taking into account the technological advances of the last 70 years.

Smaller houses may be the answer, but will hardly prove your point that the middle class is not entitled to basic comforts.

[Tman]

In regards to "green" jobs, in the current climate the promises of hundreds of thousands of new jobs is just not going to happen. The government is in love with huge centrally planned solutions, which for the most part are economically unfeasible. When these projects such as the huge wind and solar farms are developed they typically take years to construct and at best provide relatively small boosts to the demand for labot (i.e jobs) over long periods of time. Would government get out of the way and allow real innovation to take place, we would see real job creation. Think of the numbers of new jobs which could be created by retrofitting most of the tens of millions of houses in this country with relatively low cost and low technology, solar fed, battery powered low voltage lighting systems. Millions of solar panels would need to be produced, millions of batteries would need to be recycled or manufactured, millions of miles of low voltage wiring, switches, light fixtures and bulbs would need to be produced. Each of these millions of products would need to be installed. This "green" solution could reduce power usage off the grid by 10% in one fell swoop. Unfortunately government currently codifies, subsidizes and mandates the current grid structure which will need to be extensively and expensively upgraded to allow the huge wind and solar farms to supply power where it is needed. Guess who will end up paying for it?

[gman]

What everyone is missing here is that the true enemy of the US are the large, globalist banks that currently control the White House and Congress - regardless of their political affiliation of Democrats or Republicans (or as I'd like to call them - the Republicrats.)

Facsism (when large corporations and governments essential combine interests) has come to America. It is not Socialism that is killing us - it is Facsism. Note that I am not a fan of either - but until we understand who the enemy is - we will fight the wrong fight.

I am by no means in favor of welfare queens either - but the amount of federal money spent on welfare vs. the amount spent baling out the big global banks is not even close in comparison.

Since when did one "industry" in the US (financial services) get to be protected (bailed out) on the back's of the citizens and future generations? Where in the Constitution is this kind of nonsense allowed? How do you feel when your Federal representatives where literally getting calls against the first bank bailout (TARP) by a ratio of 99-1 and they passed the bill anyway. DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY REPRESENT YOU ANYMORE - OR ARE THEY BOUGHT AND PAID FOR BY THE BIG BANKS? Judge them by their actions - not their words - and the answer is very, very clear.

What can you do to make a difference?

If you want your America back, you need to be active and pray for the Federal Government to lose its power and the power to be returned to the State level - where your Founding Fathers specifically wanted it to be. I won't give everyone a huge history lesson here - but the 10th Amendment was specifically designed to keep us out of the mess we are in today.

We are a great country. But we have a rotten federal government that has amassed way too much power and has lost touch with its citizens.

Understand it is no longer Democrats vs. Republicans...it is a runaway federal government vs. you. Get behind movements to get the government power back where it belongs, at the state and local level, where your vote and voice might actually be heard.

Good luck and Godspeed to all.

[justbroke]

It's Socialism when it happens to you. It's Fascism is when it happens to someone else.

I am by no means in favor of welfare queens either - but the amount of federal money spent on welfare vs. the amount spent baling out the big global banks is not even close in comparison.

Not that I think the bailouts were a good thing -- after seeing Wall Street: Money Never Sleeps -- we spend $1.7Trillion a year on social programs (and that is about to increase). I don't see how we spend more on "global banks" than on social programs???

Since when did one "industry" in the US (financial services) get to be protected (bailed out) on the back's of the citizens and future generations? Where in the Constitution is this kind of nonsense allowed? How do you feel when your Federal representatives where literally getting calls against the first bank bailout (TARP) by a ratio of 99-1 and they passed the bill anyway. DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY REPRESENT YOU ANYMORE - OR ARE THEY BOUGHT AND PAID FOR BY THE BIG BANKS? Judge them by their actions - not their words - and the answer is very, very clear.

This happened because the economy had been propped up and coal added to the fire for years since Clinton (1993 - 2001). George Bush (2001 - 2009) followed, and I guarantee, that if the meltdown didn't occur, Barrack Obama (2009-?) would be doing the same thing as his predecessors. The Congress itself and the Federal Reserve, with a push from the Treasury, with direction from the White House, did this.

I think they should have let them fail, but there were actually "some" sectors that couldn't afford it. In a credit-driven economy, if the money market did "dry up" overnight, many companies (non-financial service) would have shut. Many non-financial companies still did shut because lending did slow incredibly!

While the Government did need to "stimulate" the markets and throw $750B more "coal" into the fire immediately, they chose to do it through the banks. I don't know if giving $2,000 to every citizen of the U.S. at that time would have been better, since we are mostly an unconscious consumer, and it would have been wasted. So where do you want to waste the money?

Again, I digress.

[gman]

Food for thought. The big banks run Congress and the White House. The people called in 99-1 against these bailouts - but Congress and the White House did not listen.


Dylan Ratigan"The Dylan Ratigan Show" on MSNBC 4:00PM ET
Posted: July 14, 2010 03:13 PM
Lies Divide, Truth Unites

The good news in America today is that many of the lies from our leaders and media no longer seem to be working. Four out of five people view the current proposed financial reform as ineffectual. Many in Congress who voted for socialism for the rich now look like they will be voted out for continuing those giveaways.

Now the only way those banksters can survive is to pretend that their corporate communism is working even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Most recently, they decided that instead of taxing complicit financial institutions the cost of their "Financial Reform-In-Name-Only," they will instead use what I call the Big Tarp Lie to pander for the vote of Senator Scott Brown and others.

The mainstream media rarely fights back against this lie, either due to an inability to understand, a desire to protect their access to these same politicians and bankers or an unwillingness to go up against the very same financial institutions that are often the only thing between them and the unemployment line.

However, we the people have to fight back against these lies -- and thankfully we own the truth.

This lie must be beaten back by all of us like whack-a-mole every time it rears its ugly head. Please help me by sending this information to any politician, media figure, banker, neighbor or robot that you find repeating it -- they can take our money, but they don't own the truth.

Let's break it down:

1. TARP itself hasn't even made money. AIG alone still owes us $75.6 billion. However, they always add the caveat "Other than AIG..." when they say that the bailouts were "profitable." But the AIG money was directly paid to many of these same banks that "paid back their TARP" at an outrageous 100 cents on the dollar! Mind you, this was done by government officials that were the former employees and current shareholders of the very banks they were helping. Let's make banks like Goldman Sachs, Bank of America and Societe Generale pay back the $105 billion of stolen taxpayer money before we let anyone say "TARP was paid back."

2. TARP is a tiny little part of a massive amount of taxpayer support. TARP is actually less than 10 percent of your tax dollars that have been handed to the banks. And now the banks "paid back" the tiny slice that is TARP with our money, and you are supposed cheer them for savvy. At this very moment, the taxpayer is still owed $2.02 trillion dollars for the bailout by our politicians and banksters, and that number is growing every day.

Never mind the money that these same banks make getting endless 0 percent interest loans from the Federal Reserve (aka you) while either they lend it back to you at 14 percent interest or just lend it right to back the government and pocket the yield. Never mind the multitude of benefits they get from being Too Big To Fail. But you're not supposed to pay attention to that; you're only supposed to notice how fast they paid back TARP!

So instead of these politicians looking for the only obvious place to find the money -- clawbacks from the people who continue to steal it -- we are now being subjected to outright lies as they once again pick the banksters over the people who voted them in. But don't let them, or anyone in the media, get away with it without hearing from you.

[Tman]

Gman, I agree with you 100%. When I hear conservative screams of, "Socialism!" It makes me want to cry. We are way past socialism in this country, we are up to our eyeballs in fascism. And it isn't just the big banks and financial services. The health care reform which was recently passed was written by executives from the health insurance companies. The big three automakers have all been protected. In fact the government does everything in its power to stifle competition and protect their corporate pay masters. The Supreme Court recently acknowledged as much in granting corporations the special first amendment right to spend UNLIMITED amounts of money in political campaigns. I am not anti-corporation, but I feel that these man-made creations must be brought back under the control of the people's government and not vice versa as we now see.

[chrisdfw]

... Your strange theory is not taking into account the technological advances of the last 70 years.

Smaller houses may be the answer, but will hardly prove your point that the middle class is not entitled to basic comforts.

My point is exactly that technological advances have made it that people think LUXURIES are necessities when they didn't even exist for
most of human history. That is exactly my point, not something I neglected. Cable is not radio, because it must be paid for. Cable is only
comparable because everyone thinks they need it, you don't.

We will never agree on what is a basic comfort because I think the middle class of this country is a bunch of spoiled brat children that
feel entitled to things that are not warranted based on their contributions, and want other people to sacrifice to pay for it. Earn it and have
it or do without.

Basic comfort, shelter, food, clothing, clean water etc. Luxury, cable tc, cell phone, air conditioning.

[gman]

Interesting back and forth on technological advances.

I have a third view that may be of interest:

1. If it were NOT for technological advances we'd be FURIOUS over the current FACSISM USA we are experiencing. During Great Depression #1 - even the "rich" would be in envy of the poorest of the poor who have iPhones, air conditioning, air travel, advanced healthcare, etc. This is the way it has been and [God willing] always will be.

2. If we were not being robbed blind by the big banks ("banksters") who are effectively running our Federal Government and who run a morally corrupt banknote monopoly called the Federal Reserve System that robs the citizens every day of their purchasing power by constantly increasing the money supply for themselves and their cronies, we'd all be living like the Jetsons by now!

What is different this go around is that since 1971 when Nixon broke the Bretton Woods agreement by going off of the gold standard once and for all and effectively declaring the US as being bankrupt - the entire world has been run by phony paper/digital currency that has been created out of thin air by the gazillions to rob from the masses to feed the ruling elite.

We are only 39 years into this experiment of the whole world being on phony paper/digital currency - and look at the mess the entire world is now in.

Every paper currency that was created by fiat (by government decree) has eventually gone to zero value over time. Every single one. This time will be no exception.

The entire world monetary system is going to come crumbling down.

The question is no longer IF? The questions are WHEN? and HOW?

I encourage everyone to read about the history of money.

A good starting point that walks one through the basics of the history of money is actually a "cartoon" video on GOOGLE VIDEO called MONEY AS DEBT.

Link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6773770802849#

Another one is by well-known economist Niall Ferguson called The Ascent of Money. The PBS special is located here:

http://video.pbs.org/video/1170821435/

==============================================

Educate yourself, enjoy - and pass it along to as many as you can.

[gman]

Interesting back and forth on technological advances.

I have a third view that may be of interest:

1. If it were NOT for technological advances we'd be FURIOUS over the current FACSISM USA we are experiencing. During Great Depression #1 - even the "rich" would be in envy of the poorest of the poor who have iPhones, air conditioning, air travel, advanced healthcare, etc. This is the way it has been and [God willing] always will be.

2. If we were not being robbed blind by the big banks ("banksters") who are effectively running our Federal Government and who run a morally corrupt banknote monopoly called the Federal Reserve System that robs the citizens every day of their purchasing power by constantly increasing the money supply for themselves and their cronies, we'd all be living like the Jetsons by now!

What is different this go around is that since 1971 when Nixon broke the Bretton Woods agreement by going off of the gold standard once and for all and effectively declaring the US as being bankrupt - the entire world has been run by phony paper/digital currency that has been created out of thin air by the gazillions to rob from the masses to feed the ruling elite.

We are only 39 years into this experiment of the whole world being on phony paper/digital currency - and look at the mess the entire world is now in.

Every paper currency that was created by fiat (by government decree) has eventually gone to zero value over time. Every single one. This time will be no exception.

The entire world monetary system is going to come crumbling down.

The question is no longer IF? The questions are WHEN? and HOW?

I encourage everyone to read about the history of money.

A good starting point that walks one through the basics of the history of money is actually a "cartoon" video on GOOGLE VIDEO called MONEY AS DEBT.

Link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...6773770802849#

Another one is by well-known economist Niall Ferguson called The Ascent of Money. The PBS special is located here:

http://video.pbs.org/video/1170821435/

==============================================

Educate yourself, enjoy - and pass it along to as many as you can.

[chrisdfw]

I have a third view that may be of interest:

1. If it were NOT for technological advances we'd be FURIOUS over the current FACSISM USA we are experiencing. During Great Depression #1 - even the "rich" would be in envy of the poorest of the poor who have iPhones, air conditioning, air travel, advanced healthcare, etc. This is the way it has been and [God willing] always will be.

2. If we were not being robbed blind by the big banks ("banksters") who are effectively running our Federal Government and who run a morally corrupt banknote monopoly called the Federal Reserve System that robs the citizens every day of their purchasing power by constantly increasing the money supply for themselves and their cronies, we'd all be living like the Jetsons by now!

I'd have to substantially agree on both points.

We are truly spoiled (myself included for certain) if we just look back and HONESTLY evaluate whether we really need the things we enjoy. I have nothing against them.. I love my creature comforts and if I can afford them, I will have them. But just because some portion of the population can't afford these things does not constitute a crisis. If people are starving, that is different. But in many cases, I see parents compromising the education, health, and feeding of their children to sit in air conditioned comfort, with a cell phoen and cable TV. No joke, I do some charity work and delivered a bed to the apartment of a family for a child whose parents did not have a bed for the child. It was chilly while it was 105 degrees outside, the father never got off the couch watching pay cable to help us move the bed in for the child. Unfortunately, I don't think that is the exception. If you can't provide food and clothing, and decent accomodations for your child, watching cable and having air conditioning is child abuse in my mind.

I grew up in a very poor area of the country where we did without cable and air conditioning so we could eat. We had one car for the family, because we couldn't afford two. We put on sweaters in the winter and opened the windows in the summer. I turned out ok (except for a bad accident and failed business). People could do without those things today and be just fine, but they won't, not even with their children wearings shoes with holes and eating terrible diets. Ditch the cable and buy some decent food and clothes for your children. And don't expect me to feed them through food stamps and school lunches.

Most of the poor today are not truly poor by any standard other than in comparison to our bloated standard of living of the past 50 years. Look into the past or into any other country and see truly poor. There is no need to subsidize the middle class and poor with government programs so they can enjoy air conditioning, two cars, and cable television (amongst other things). If people can't adjust their living standards to their incomes, we are serious trouble. Our natural resources are being strained, excessive energy use will only become more expensive and the true pain we can't afford things is yet to come. Nowhere else in the world are houses and apartments so large and use so much energy. Do we think that is sustainable? I am not a liberal tree hugger, I am a libertarian, but a realist as well, we can't continue to consume like we have in the past 50 years, especially energy. I don't believe in global warming, but I don't believe in waste. I don't believe I should pay to subsidize someones lifestyle. If you are starving, I feel compelled to help. If you are hungry, but are running an air conditioner, paying for a cell phone, and watching cable tv in two rooms while someone else is on the internet in a third room, your priorities are f****d up and I don't want to pay for your food stamps, section 8 housing, welfare, healthcare. We are far too generous with other peoples money to subsidize people's bloated lifestyles.

[gman]

I'd have to substantially agree on both points.

We are truly spoiled (myself included for certain) if we just look back and HONESTLY evaluate whether we really need the things we enjoy. I have nothing against them.. I love my creature comforts and if I can afford them, I will have them. But just because some portion of the population can't afford these things does not constitute a crisis. If people are starving, that is different. But in many cases, I see parents compromising the education, health, and feeding of their children to sit in air conditioned comfort, with a cell phoen and cable TV. No joke, I do some charity work and delivered a bed to the apartment of a family for a child whose parents did not have a bed for the child. It was chilly while it was 105 degrees outside, the father never got off the couch watching pay cable to help us move the bed in for the child. Unfortunately, I don't think that is the exception. If you can't provide food and clothing, and decent accomodations for your child, watching cable and having air conditioning is child abuse in my mind.

I grew up in a very poor area of the country where we did without cable and air conditioning so we could eat. We had one car for the family, because we couldn't afford two. We put on sweaters in the winter and opened the windows in the summer. I turned out ok (except for a bad accident and failed business). People could do without those things today and be just fine, but they won't, not even with their children wearings shoes with holes and eating terrible diets. Ditch the cable and buy some decent food and clothes for your children. And don't expect me to feed them through food stamps and school lunches.

Most of the poor today are not truly poor by any standard other than in comparison to our bloated standard of living of the past 50 years. Look into the past or into any other country and see truly poor. There is no need to subsidize the middle class and poor with government programs so they can enjoy air conditioning, two cars, and cable television (amongst other things). If people can't adjust their living standards to their incomes, we are serious trouble. Our natural resources are being strained, excessive energy use will only become more expensive and the true pain we can't afford things is yet to come. Nowhere else in the world are houses and apartments so large and use so much energy. Do we think that is sustainable? I am not a liberal tree hugger, I am a libertarian, but a realist as well, we can't continue to consume like we have in the past 50 years, especially energy. I don't believe in global warming, but I don't believe in waste. I don't believe I should pay to subsidize someones lifestyle. If you are starving, I feel compelled to help. If you are hungry, but are running an air conditioner, paying for a cell phone, and watching cable tv in two rooms while someone else is on the internet in a third room, your priorities are f****d up and I don't want to pay for your food stamps, section 8 housing, welfare, healthcare. We are far too generous with other peoples money to subsidize people's bloated lifestyles.

I agree with all that you say here - but take one exception. (And by the way, count me in as a Libertarian as well, in the classic Thomas Jefferson sense.)

If we were not being systemically robbed blind by the global banks via the Federal Reserve System - the whole argument would be a moot point. We are like frogs in a slowly boiling pot of water. While the global banks (the ruling elite) skim off their take via currency destruction, we all sit in the pot "enjoying the warm water" while we are cooked slowly to death.

I have come to the conclusion that the global banks/ruling class want us to fight each other (class warfare, racism, democrats vs republicans, and my favorite - the so-called War on Terror) so we never see the true enemy - THEM.

I view these people just like the Kings and ruling classes of yesteryear. The only difference today is HOW the pull of their crime against the citizens. If you do not know how you are being robbed, please read about the reasons behind creating the Federal Reserve Bank. Did any of you know that it is NOT a government body but is instead a private company that owns the monopoly on currency creation - and is no more "federal" than Federal Express?

Read about why Woodrow Wilson, who signed the Federal Reserve Act, later in his life said ""I fear I have destroyed my country" when asked about the law.

What gives these ruling class people the "right" to rob us blind - day after day? Are they "better" than you and me? Are they anointed by the Almighty? (Well, Lloyd Blankfein does say he is doing God's work, but I digress.)

One day soon, just like as it has throughout history, the ruling elite will be overthrown. This has happened over and over and over - and this time will be no different.

In prior history that day came when a loaf of bread literally cost a week of wages.

In the US, I think it will likely be when a gallon of gas costs $10+ or more. This will literally stop millions in their tracks because it will start to cost about 1/2 of someone's daily TAKE HOME PAY just to drive.

Just a hunch, but think of how freaked out people were when gas spiked to $4.00/gallon!!!

Time will tell.

[chrisdfw]

I agree with all that you say here - but take one exception. (And by the way, count me in as a Libertarian as well, in the classic Thomas Jefferson sense.)

I guess I missed the exception

If we don't get ready fuel costs will indeed cripple the economy, we are too dependent on energy, past the point of common sense.

Don't discount the idea that food might be tremendously expensive as well, agriculture in this country is extremely dependent on petroleum and energy.

[justbroke]

I knew that about "The Fed". Board of Governors... after seeing Wall Street, which is dramatization, I say, the board of crooks. LOL!

[andy158]

Does anyone have data on working class income? A graph or something?

I am guessing the poverty level in this country for a family of four is around $25k, I would consider our family of four upper lower class at 60k/year. I would consider middle class income for a family of four between $80k and 150k. Adjusted for inflation of course.

I would research it myself, but I am busy working 60+ hours a week to sustain my "middle class" income level.

As far as living like a previous a poster stated, today's technology is necessary to even function in this society. Walking to work? How many people live walking distance to work? Public transportation is non-existant where we live, so a car is a necessity for my 24 mile commute to work. If you don't have the basic conveniences you are living in severe poverty and society is going to run you over. Basic conveniences are priced so that even the working poor can afford them. Unlike third world countries where only the truely elite have running water, indoor plumbing, electricity, etc. If you want to live like the Amish (no offense) go right ahead. Remember they are tax exempt! I will use my money to live the comfort level I can afford.

I do agree that this country's standard of living is slippping and will never compare the growth spurt of the 20th century. Hence the true middle class will continue losing ground and soon be a mole hill between the have and have not mountains. I just want to know who will keep the big banks and corporations alive when the blood of the middle class is drained?

[WhatMoney]

Middle Class seems more of a state of mind in this country. There were many who considered themselves middle-class when they had lower and lower middle incomes. The housing boom and easy credit allowed them to live like middle-class, until the bubble burst.

I tend to go along with the dictionary definition - although that excludes most Americans who consider themselves middle-class:

DICTIONARY DEFINITION

The American Heritage Dictionary defines the middle class as follows: "The socioeconomic class between the working class and the upper class, usually including professionals, highly skilled laborers, and lower and middle management."

INCOME

Economists generally align the group according to earnings, even if there is no standard established range.

"Most people tend to think of themselves as middle class unless they're (billionaire investor) Warren Buffett or really poor," said J.D. Foster, an economist and senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank.

Foster regards the upper 20 percent of earners as "upper income" and the lower 20 percent as "lower income." He regards the 60 percent in the middle as middle class, with household incomes roughly between $25,000 and $100,000.

Median household income in the United States was $52,175 in 2008, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUST...4?pageNumber=1

There is plenty of controversy on what defines the middle-class. What is clear is that no one likes to think of themselves as lower-middle class, or less, unless they are really dirt poor.