Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!) (updated: 04/28/2015)

Welcome to the Bankruptcy Forum. Bankruptcy (BK) Forum is known as BKForum.com and will be referred to as BKF hereinafter. In order to ensure a long term success of our vibrant community, we have established certain rules and guidelines to which everyone must adhere to. Please take your time to carefully read our rules, before you start to participate in the community.

Things you agree to do:
BKFORUM.com (BKF) users agree to use the search function before starting a new thread. This prevents duplicate discussions and allows for better organized topics.

All BKF users agree to read the sticky posts which may be available at the top of a forum page. These Sticky posts often contain valuable information. They may also outline more rules and guidelines specific for that particular forum, stickies are put in place by that forums moderator(s) or admin(s).

Things you agree not to do:

All BKF users agree not to call people names or write a post simply to make a personal attack, or get a negative reaction; this behavior is not allowed on our forum. The use of derogatory language aimed at anyone will be severely dealt with. There is no need to agree with each other, or to even like each other. However, by signing onto BKForum.com you agree to treat each member and guest with the respect they deserve. No threats or personal attacks will be allowed.

All BKF users agree not to discuss, engage, or encourage any behavior or activity which violates the law. Discussion of drugs, violence, murder, theft, vandalism, fraud or any other issue which could be used to help individuals break the law is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to "bump" old threads, unless there is a specific benefit to the community by doing so. But in most cases, please don't post in very old threads, instead start new threads.

All BKF users agree not to attempt/use another members account. It is against BKF rules to use any account other than your own. Impersonating another member will result in an immediate ban. It is also against the rules to open more than one account in your own name without permission from a moderator or administrator. If you have been banned for any reason, it is against the rules to open another account. If you were banned temporarily and you are caught using another account you will be banned permanently. Choosing a moniker which is similar in either sound or spelling as a moderator or administrator is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to private message any moderator, admin, or other member with questions related to their personal circumstances (Questions about the forum or issues with the forum are ok). This forum only works when members share their experience and insights with everyone.

Things you agree not to post:
All BKF users agree not to post any derogatory/racist/or sexist remarks. This includes attachments, links and all information contained within posts, signatures, and avatars, failure to comply with this rule will result in a permanent ban.

All BKF users agree not to post any copyrighted or trademarked information without the express written permission of the owner(s) / proper citation of source.

All BKF users agree not to post any real names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, social security numbers, or any other personal details (their own or other people's).

All BKF users agree not to post links, pictures, attachments, videos, or the like of pornographic content, objectionable material or extreme violence, whether cartoon or real.

All BKF users agree not to use BKF for advertising purposes without a written contract between yourself/company/agent and the administration of BKF. Blatant advertising will result in a ban.

All BKF users agree not to spam the forums. Spam includes but is not limited to posting erroneous, non-relevant-useless, off-topic, or meaningless posts. Spam may also include posts which contain no text, or large areas of blank space between lines. Simply posting emoticons without text is considered spam. BKF is the largest bankruptcy message board and all the content is intended to help other users. Please help us improve the quality of our forum by making sure that your posts are well-worded, spell checked, grammatically correct and syntaxed.

Regarding actions of moderators and administrators:

The forum is no place to air out your opinion or be judgmental of our staff and its capabilities.

All BKF users agree not to abuse or mistreat moderators or administrators. It is against BKF rules to post any information regarding bans or any other action taken by a member of the moderating or administrative team. If you wish to discuss bans or warnings please do so via PM. To place a complaint against a moderator, send a PM to a super moderator. All Moderators are equal, any decision made by a moderator must be adhered to. If a moderator tells you something you do not like, do not go to another moderator looking for a different answer. If you are caught doing this you will be banned. The moderators work as a team and respect the decisions made by their peers and will help enforce them unless an administrator tells them differently.
If you have an issue with how the forum is run, then notify one of our administrator and we will look into the situation. We have in the past and still do appreciate any input that you offer this forum. But critical input and/or judgmental postings towards the staff will result in you getting banned.


Should you find a thread offensive or out of line, then notify a Mod in a PM so they can evaluate the situation and do the action deemed necessary.

All moderators do have active "other" lives outside of the forum and help moderate this forum in their spare time throughout the days and weeks.

If you have a problem with a member or Mod follow the proper channels of reporting it.

BKF reserves the right to delete any posts which contain anti-BKF comments or discussion. Any bashing of moderators or administrators, or any of their discussion or actions will also be deleted, and the responsible posting party(s) will be banned. Any public anti-BKF advertising, communication, or posts on another forum will result in permanent bans as well.

All warnings and bans are decided by individual moderators and administrators. Warnings are preferable to bans however, for serious offenses and repeat abusers bans will go into effect. The length of the bans can vary from several hours to permanent.

All messages posted or sent including through PM are the property of BKforum.com.

All BKF users agree not to advertiser on the forum (Niether by posting, private messaging or using your signature). If you are a company/attorney/legal adviser wishing to advertise on the site or sell a product, you must contact the head administrator and inquire about our advertising packages.

All bankruptcy related opinions expressed on BKForum.com are those of their authors and not necessarily of BKF, its staff or representatives.

You agree not to copy any material/post/content from BKF without written permission from our head administrator .

By posting on this forum you agree to these terms and conditions, including any punishment deemed appropriate by moderators or administrators in the event of an offense.

Administrators/Moderators can change these rules at any time without prior notice.
See more
See less

AP notice received today ... scared ... stressed ... long story thanks for helping

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • AP notice received today ... scared ... stressed ... long story thanks for helping

    Long story short (as short as I can make it)

    Preface (for back story):

    In August of 2011, we had some work done in our home. The insurance company paid us for the work. The work wasn't done correctly, and with the recommendation of our 3rd party adjuster, we paid a second company to do the work correctly. The check we received DID have the first company's name on it, but our bank let us cash it, saying that two signatures was all they needed (and we sent a rescind of power of attorney letter to the first company). So we lost in arbitration with the first company's lawyer, basically because we couldn't afford an attorney. We always do the right thing, and we tried to get all our ducks in a row especially since we knew they would probably sue. Well, they won, to the tune of about $16,000.

    We waited as long as we could (while they were trying to garnish our accounts, etc) and finally decided to just go ahead and file chapter 7 in April of 2013. We had our creditors meeting 59 days ago today... lo and behold, the lawyer for the first company is objecting to our case via AP. We received an email today for "notice of Adversary proceeding opened". I'm slowly understanding what this means, after reading on this VERY helpful site.

    Here's my problem: Since we lost in arbitration and had a judgment against us, will we automatically lose? We can NOT afford to pay them back at all, I'm the sole earner in my family of 5 and we barely scrape by as it is. I have so many questions and since my case seems to be different than others listed here, I'd like to incur anyone's advice here that can help. Attorneys are preferred but anyone with experience is welcome.

    We didn't lose in arbitration due to them claiming fraud, we lost due to the fact that they argued there was "no duplication of work by the second company, that the first had already completed". Which is total crap. We did get a 2nd check for some additional work that the 2nd company did ON TOP of the first company's work, but had to pay out of pocket for an additional $3,000 in hotel expenses because we were out of the house that much longer.

    I hope I've given enough background on this to get as much help as possible.

    FYI, everything else is going smoothly with our still opened BK. We signed a reaffirmation agreement on our one vehicle, but the judge "vacated the hearing" so we wouldn't be responsible for anything if the car was repossessed later due to non-payment, etc. That's a whole other story, though...that creditor asked for another reaffirmation hearing, but we have since decided to surrender the vehicle and purchase another less expensive vehicle. (Curious though, the attorney for the construction company received notice of the request for a new reaffirmation hearing, is this normal?)

    So, in summary, I guess I'll simplify this with my questions:
    1. What happens next?
    2. What do I need to do today?
    3. Should I retain an attorney? We were a pro se case because we cannot afford one.
    4. Is there any way this can "go away"? My wife and I have dealt with so much over the last couple years, we're ready to just give up and let whatever happens happen.

    Thank you in advance for all of your help, I'll be trolling this forum to determine what to do next.
    Happily accepting help and advice from any and all helpers

  • #2
    We didn't lose in arbitration due to them claiming fraud,
    But did they claim from and was the judgement for fraud? If so, the creditor will probably win the AP. What is stated as the basis for the AP?

    You should at least consult with a few BK attorneys who defend APs. Do it soon so you don't miss the deadline to respond. You say you lost the first case because you didn't have an attorney. This is your second chance to have an attorney help you get out of paying this creditor.

    Attorneys are preferred but anyone with experience is welcome.
    Hopefully one of our attorney members will come give you some tips. But, rememver that most of bkforum members are not attorneys. Even if an attorney does respond, you should not rely on this site as a substitute for an attorney who can examine all of the facts of your case.

    Re the reaffirmation: I assume you filed a reaffirmation agreement with the court. Have you formally revoked it? If not, I think you probably should.
    LadyInTheRed is in the black!
    Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
    $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello LadyInTheRed, thank you for your reply!
      As far as arbitration, they never said or even insinuated fraud in the final rulings. They simply stated that there was "no found duplication of work" between the first and second company... all because their invoices were worded differently.

      As far as the reaffirmation agreement, I formally rescinded that just a few minutes ago. I successfully secured a new car loan for a MUCH cheaper vehicle (at a higher interest rate, unfornately, but it is what it is).

      As far as the AP, since we haven't been served, when does the 14 day answer period start?

      Thank you for your help.
      Happily accepting help and advice from any and all helpers

      Comment


      • #4
        Here's the emails that I've received so far today:
        This is why I wish we had money for an attorneyt. If anyone can explain these, that'd be great.

        Adversary Proceeding Opened (with AP case number)
        Complaint fee paid (on AP case number)
        Request for issuance of summons (with AP case number)
        Notice of Appearance (with BK case number)

        That's all we've gotten so far today.

        Thanks again.
        Happily accepting help and advice from any and all helpers

        Comment


        • #5
          Also, sorry for all the posts...Is it typical and normal for lawyers to use big scary words in their initial complaint to open a AP? I read the file and they're all over the place, and I'm honestly shaking while reading it. Any comfort would be appreciated.
          Thanks again.
          Happily accepting help and advice from any and all helpers

          Comment


          • #6
            Have you signed up for PACER? You can keep track of your case with that, and see the pdf document online when it hits your file, and before the paper copy arrives in your mail. You will need to be careful, because each time you open a document to look at it online, you will be charged $0.10 a page, and it can mount up.

            You really need to see the wording in the AP document. Until then, you don't really know what they are getting at.

            Here's the link to PACER:

            http://www.pacer.gov/

            You just follow the instructions and enter your info here:

            https://www.pacer.gov/psco/cgi-bin/regform.pl

            There is also a detailed manual available:

            http://www.pacer.gov/documents/pacermanual.pdf
            Last edited by AngelinaCat; 06-24-2013, 06:47 PM.
            "To go bravely forward is to invite a miracle."

            "Worry is the darkroom where negatives are formed."

            Comment


            • #7
              Somehow, I was able to get to the doc the first time I clicked on it, and they used words like "larceny" and "extortion" when those words were never mentioned or even eluded to in arbitration. I'm guessing this was to make it look "juicy" enough for a judge to look at? Or should I really be scared?
              I'm going to sign up for PACER, but is it really worth seeing the items if they're mailing them same day? It's only usually a 2-day turnaround.
              Happily accepting help and advice from any and all helpers

              Comment


              • #8
                If you do have PACER, you can type the document in here removing any identifying info (name, court, judge, appellant, etc.) if that is in your comfort zone.

                Hang in there. (((hug)))
                ~~ Filed Over Median Income Chapter 7: 12/17/2010 ~~ 341 Held: 1/12/2011 ~~ Discharged: 03/16/2011 ~~
                Not an attorney - just an opinionated woman.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you, ValleYum.
                  Happily accepting help and advice from any and all helpers

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    i read and re-read you reasoning for losing the arbitration and i just don't understand the basis of the decision. as lady has pointed out, if the decision of the arbitrator was based on fraud then yes, they could win the AP. of course that would be the all time worse scenario. what would that mean to you? it would just mean you would have to work out payments on the debt. that's the worse. however, if you are a NO asset 7, it is likely they will have a difficult time collecting.

                    again, it's difficult to understand what or why you lost the arbitration, you really don't need an atty to win at a sitting arbitration, you just need a properly presently defense to the other parties argument. i have found, and i'm certain lady has seen it as well, it just seems to happenstance that many of these arbitrators side with the companies as opposed to individuals, although i have seen a few result in a stepped up position.

                    as suggested you really need to check with your atty. make certain as also suggested that they are well versed on the adversary proceedings, many are not, so you may have to hire an additional atty to handle this situation for you.

                    while it's really scary and i really feel for you, other than the plaintiff/creditor being able to absolutely submit unquestionable proofs of fraud on your behalf, their position will or should not hold up. i know also how it must make you feel to see the wording of "larceny" and "extortion" but consider this, fraud or a criminal act is their ONLY way to win this so of course they are going to spout all sorts of nastys about you. it's just part of their game. again, if you are a NO asset 7, they don't have much of a way to collect.

                    again, do as everyone suggests and run this by the atty. i for one, unless there is provable fraud think you'll be fine. however, it will cost you most likely anywhere from $750 and over for the atty. it's well worth the money. (it may have gone up since ours was a few plus years ago and that was the going rate).

                    take a deep breath, really, you know the worse scenario and it's ONLY money. keep us posted, there is always someone here to listen.
                    Last edited by tobee43; 06-24-2013, 07:19 PM.
                    8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      tobee43, THANK YOU. I am going to try and contact a few attorneys tomorrow and see where to go from here. I guess I'm worrying now more about the criminal aspect of this, since they're using such big words that weren't brought up in arbitration. I guess if they DID have proof, they would have already tried to prosecute criminally, no?
                      Happily accepting help and advice from any and all helpers

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by scbendel View Post
                        I'm going to sign up for PACER, but is it really worth seeing the items if they're mailing them same day? It's only usually a 2-day turnaround.
                        I don't know when the 15 days start. Either way, with only 15 days to respond, I wouldn't waste any time.

                        You really should start calling attorneys and see if you can get a consultation or two. Bring copies of the complaint and the judgement from the lawsuit and of the AP. Even if you don't hire an attorney, you may at least get some valuable input. Have you looked for legal aid options?
                        LadyInTheRed is in the black!
                        Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
                        $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by scbendel View Post
                          tobee43, THANK YOU. I am going to try and contact a few attorneys tomorrow and see where to go from here. I guess I'm worrying now more about the criminal aspect of this, since they're using such big words that weren't brought up in arbitration. I guess if they DID have proof, they would have already tried to prosecute criminally, no?
                          They are probably just using that language to try to convince the court that the debt is not dischargeable.
                          LadyInTheRed is in the black!
                          Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
                          $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by scbendel View Post
                            tobee43, THANK YOU. I am going to try and contact a few attorneys tomorrow and see where to go from here. I guess I'm worrying now more about the criminal aspect of this, since they're using such big words that weren't brought up in arbitration. I guess if they DID have proof, they would have already tried to prosecute criminally, no?
                            absolutely, and your atty will clearly point that out. i know it's hard for me to tell you relax, but this will run it's course, either way. it's just a bump in the road, and you just have to move it to the side and get on with your lives.

                            i have been through one, so it's hard to hear people tell all these lies, but in the end, we won. our opponent had a bit of twist on their argument claiming theirs was a "secured" debt as opposed to non secured. here's the kicker, i knew the debt was not secured but the atty we hired said and told us, sorry you have to pay them and it was approx 25k. i said NO way, i have all the documents that the loan was secured by inventory. i have inventory left, so let them have at it. no way was it personally guarantee, no collateral other than inventory. period. we ended up having to hire yet another atty for the AP and won with ease. my point in telling you this is to also let you know not all AP's are based on the argument of fraud.

                            i'm with you, if they had the proof THEN they would have used it. good, get the best atty you can, i really think it's going be fine. also, check your records and see if you can find the final decision from the arbitration that might help give you more insight to where they are going or trying to go with this. it's always best to be one step ahead if you can be.
                            8/4/2008 MAKE SURE AND VISIT Tobee's Blogs! http://www.bkforum.com/blog.php?32727-tobee43 and all are welcome to bk forum's Florida State Questions and Answers on BK http://www.bkforum.com/group.php?groupid=9

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              LadyInTheRed, from what I'm reading, I have 14 days from being served. I haven't been served yet, so I'm going to gather all of my options and make a decision and go from there. These guys really have me up in arms today. All of this while I'm trying to work too...which has made today ridiculously hard to bare.
                              Happily accepting help and advice from any and all helpers

                              Comment

                              Unconfigured Ad Widget

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X