Interesting second lawyer interview (need to vent)

[zpbk13]

My husband and I saw a second lawyer yesterday and the visit was interesting.

He said he was a former chapter 7 trustee and boy did it show. First he insisted that we would be in a 100% payback plan at 1350 per month and that we had to include both our vehicles (First attorney told us we did not have to include any vehicles, just credit card debt in repayment). When I pointed out to him that it was confusing how he came to that conclusion without even figuring out how much disposable income we had, he said I worked for one of the top law firms in town and made "so much money" that it was a given we would be in a 100% plan but if I wanted to "fool around" or "bs" with the numbers he could see about doing that. So he did some recalculations at a 50% payback but said the trustee would probably object nad the payment was still over $1,000 per month. Ok.

Next, he was none too happy that we had purchased a new vehicle. That really seemed to irritate him. I told him that the first attorney we consulted that it was a good idea and then he trashed her a bit when he found how who she was. When he saw how shocked I was, he cleaned it up a bit because it turns out her father in law is a current U.S. trustee. Okay.

Then I ask him about cramming down our 2005 vehicle and he had the nerve to say that in his 30 years of doing these types of cases, he has rarely run into anyone wanting to do one and he would have to check the statute. I stared at him long and hard and told him the first attorney made it seem like it was something common. He went to his shelf and pretended to search for the statute and said it was so complicated he would have to call the trustees office on Monday and see if it was allowed.

The straw that totally broke the camel's back for me was when we discussed a vehicle that I co-signed for my son. He said I could not just "get out of it" that it was my responsibility and if my stopped paying on the vehicle then I would be responsible and it would mess up our 13. I told him that this is not the impression I got from our first attorney. But I could have misunderstood her. Then the attorney got visible upset with me and said there was no way I could get out of the debt, there was no way to include it in the 13, and if my son defaulted the car company would indeed come after me. He said it with almost glee.

I am just so shocked. No wonder this guy has 100% confirmations. He forces the uninformed into 100% paybacks - which as we were leaving he bragged about. He slogan is: "I will fight for you". Right. Seems to me like he's fighting for the creditors. If we could afford 100% payback, why would we be filing bk? And why should we pay almost $45,000 worth of car payments into our plan that one attorney tells us is unnecessary. Oh that's right, so the trustee can get a bigger fee. Sigh.

One last thing. In figuring out our monthly payment I asked about the trustee's fee. He said it could vary anywhere from 7-10% so he would "pad" or payment to pay the trustee extra "just in case". Needless to say, we will NOT be using that guy! Sorry this was so long. Just had to vent!

[Flamingo]

From your first paragraph I am gathering that you make a lot of money and work for a top law firm in your city. It may be the amount of money you make that is the problem and without listing your income and debts and other information on here, it's impossible for anyone on here to tell you whether or not either attorney gave you good advice.

Not knowing your situation and going by what I gathered from your first paragraph, is there anyone in your law firm that can give you a reference to some representation? I contacted a former attorney I worked for who contacted some of his buddies and he called me back with a referral to who turned out to be the top BK attorney in our state at that time. We never regretted that referral and got super advice and representation.

I too would be leery of what you were told by the second attorney and the reference to "padding" the trustee fee is outrageous. I get the sense this attorney is aggravated that you are in the position to file BK and feels you should be paying back everything.

Best of luck to you - I would suggest posting more information on here as to your matter to get better perspectives.

[spidge]

Nice to hear that even when I pay an attorney to work for me they are still attempting to drive the ch 13 payment up to increase the trustee monthly revenue. My attorney still want me to go into a ch 7 on $37,000 of CC debt yet keep my $93,000 second. ????? Is my math wrong or would I be better off in the 13?

[zpbk13]

Flamingo - thanks for the advice. I thought about approaching the bankruptcy attorney I work for (creditors' rights) and asking him but I want to keep my business out of the office. I liked the first attorney we saw, I just wanted to get a second opinion, sort of. I do make decent money (around $48,000 but I'm a secretary - not a paralegal or attorney) and I do not understand his snide comment on how I must make top dollar and should be in a 100 repayment plan all without looking at our numbers. That's the part that floored me. Not how much I make or even if we should be in a 100% plan but the mere fact that the statement was made without looking at our expenses.

My mother always said to go with your first mind. My first mind says to stick with the first attorney. We will be paying her retainer later this week so we can get the process started and move on with our life. Maybe we will be in a 100 repayment plan. Fine. I just want to at least feel my attorney is on my side.

[zpbk13]

Me again. Okay here are me and DH's numbers:

Together we make $75,000 per year
We have credit card debt totaling $31,000
2 car payments of $436 and $407 or totaling about $43,000
We own our house and the mortgage, taxes, insurance and pmi total $1268
There are three in our household including son who has been out of work -

Food - $575
Utilities - $400
Auto ins. on 3 cars $212
Timeshare $212 (both attorneys agreed trustee will not want it)
Cable $10 (reception service only)
Cell phone $150
City taxes $75
Personal products $25
Hair $75
Religious Contribution $40
Health insurance $225

That is about all I can think of right now but this should give you all picture of what we are dealing with. Thanks for any help or advice!

[zpbk13]

Nice to hear that even when I pay an attorney to work for me they are still attempting to drive the ch 13 payment up to increase the trustee monthly revenue. My attorney still want me to go into a ch 7 on $37,000 of CC debt yet keep my $93,000 second. ????? Is my math wrong or would I be better off in the 13?

I see our credit card debt is pretty similar. I just wish I had the money to pay these cards off!!! Tried to go the consumer credit counseling route again but they want $1,060 per month and will not tell us how many months the program will run. They kept telling us it just depends. Send in the payment and then we will tell you. Nope, not going to happen. Even at a 100 percent repayment of $1350 that will be better than about $1100 to cccs and then $800 in car payments. Sigh, spidge I wish you all the best and wish we could just do a 7 too.

[optimistic1]

zpbk13

Try using this calculator to get a better picture of what your monthly expenses are.

http://www.ca-bankruptcy-attorneys.com/calculators/expense_calculator.html

[spidge]

Would the guidelines on this form help. It seems much higher than what I was using.

http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankruptcy/means-test/

Hope this is allowed and helps someone.

[justbroke]

Me again. Okay here are me and DH's numbers:

I just ran some quick numbers, and really didn't include a lot of stuff you have above (personal products, hair, cable, timeshare, auto insurance), and I have come up with a negative DMI. (Negative almost $200/month. Assumed $1,500/month in payroll taxes.)

I don't know what that second lawyer was smoking before you walked in...

The only real issue is that even with a negative DMI, the Trustee would want the $212/month you're paying for the Timeshare, to be contributed towards your unsecured creditors.

They may have issue with your out of work son (I assume he's over 21), and whether you can actually use a 3-person household for your allowances. Still, not saying that second lawyer was a real charmer.

Even with all that... I don't see a 100% plan. I don't even see a 50% plan. I don't know how that lawyer came up with those numbers.

I don't know what you mean by the $1,350 and what's included in the Plan. Remember, your plan actually includes things inside and outside the plan. Typically, people refer to Plan payments as those that are paid through the Trustee.

Re-reading your first post still makes me stick to my stomach.

[zpbk13]

optimistic - thanks for the link. I have used that calculator before and it was very helpful. It added even more fuel to my fire that the second attorney said we should be in a 100% repayment plan. Once I used that calculator, I came up with about $300 leftover.

spidge - thanks for this link too. I actually get a negative number when I do my calculation with this test. I am hopeful that when we go over figures with our first attorney, she will help us come up with a budget that makes sense and is doable for us.

justbroke - we are on the same page. The attorney is the one that said our plan payment would be $1350 at 100% payback because I make "so much money". He includes our two car payments in the plan plus the payback to the creditors in that amount. Everything else (mortgage, etc.) to be paid outside the plan. I am concerned about how the trustee will view my son but both attorneys say we qualify as a household of 3. Dear son just got a job two weeks ago so he should be able to start paying his own bills now which will be a relief. He is 21. And yes, every time I relive the interview with the second attorney, it makes me sick too. I just hate to think of all the unsuspecting people that are not blessed to have found this forum that walk into his office and get stuck with unlivable plans. Now I see why so many 13's fail.

Thanks everyone for your support. I am calling attorney #1 to set up a meeting to pay her the retainer and get started with the paperwork tomorrow. I will report back what she says our monthly payment to the trustee will be.

[Flamingo]

Your son's income may also need to be included in your numbers since he will qualify as a member of the household. Do you claim him as a dependent for tax purposes? Do you provide more than half of his support? If he has been out of work and living with you and you provided more than half of his support for more than six months, you can claim him as a dependent. You may want to discuss that situation with your attorney.

For some reason I feel the second attorney when he found out you work for a law firm may know someone at your firm or has a dislike for someone at your firm and gave you horrible advice. I don't know what his purpose was, if any. But I do understand you not wanting to involve anyone at your firm with your BK. You can always call your State Bar Association to obtain a good referral for another BK attorney reference if you are still uncertain.

As to your comment about failing chapter 13's, most of them fail just not from bad attorney advice but from people having a hard time budgeting and cutting back (lifestyle changes, no credit cards) from how they handled finances previously.

Best of luck to you and keep us informed as things progress.

[walkthaplank]

Put lawyer #2 behind you, BTW, he didn't talk about "the magic of CH13" did he?

It wouldn't hurt to get another or even 5 other opinions, but clearly #2 is fitting for the second lawyer. I had a lawyer I interviewed that told me things completely different than the other lawyers (and my research) told me. He had me paying a monthly figure in a 5 year plan that would have payed about 150% of my unsecured, told me they wouldn't even thing about trying to strip my 2nd mortgage unless my 1st was under by at least $50k.

There are some out there that are just bad, you found one. Happy hunting!

[Ortgeist]

Somewhat similar situation, except we are in ch 13

Yep. We pay $400 monthly in our plan and have been successful the whole year and a half. Now, I have decided that I want to divorce my husband. It took a long time for me to see that this is the only choice for us. So I went to meet w/ the lawyer and my husband about what will happen. I mean, we are both individually under the state's median for income. Yet, somehow the lawyer came to the conclusion that I could manage my current plan even on one less income. OK...Huh? He proceeded to lecture me on how tough it will be for me and that I should think about this divorce because "people can be forgiving and you can work things out".
Yeah- don't remember seeing that he was a certified counselor or psychologist anywhere. So..... I came to the conclusion that he only cares about his payment. He even looked at our payment log and started whining that the court hadn't applied enough to his bill.
So now I'm not sure what to do. Is it possible to fire him? If he can't take my best interest at heart as well as my children's than he needs to be out of my life immediately!!!!! I depend on my lawyer to do all he can to set me up for success.

So I know in a round about way what you are talking about. I can't believe people actually hire that guy. You should send him a "thinking of you" card after you hire the other attourney.

Let us know what ends up happening.

Carrie

[sassiebaz]

I have met with three attorney's and they all said something different! I take that back, one I met with was a paralegal. He actually was the only one that said they were here to work for me! The other's were a little arrogant and talked down to me in a sort of way. It makes you wonder.....who are they really working for?

[justbroke]

It makes you wonder.....who are they really working for?

Dead presidents. ;)

There are some out there that generally care about this. However, I have hung out with a lot of top BK lawyers (in and around the Court), and they are just exhausted and overwhelmed. Seems to me that they should just stop taking new clients, but they really can't do that. I will agree that some of them are Bankruptcy Mills that have "no-look" fees for simple BKs. These Mills just don't have the time, or luxury, to think about a case and litigate.

They call them "no-look" for a reason.