urgent help please :( (my questions not on this site)

[witeout]

Hi everyone, I read here but have never posted.

Edit to post------Most important------we are running the #'s and we are paying WAY more than 100% payback?
More than 120%?
PLUS the courts show 82 months of payment? at 60 months I get the figures to balance but at 82?
THEN they want out 401 K payment for 3 extra years? Dear lord that will be like a 200% payback plan?
They atty is of no use and seems to care less?


I am starting to think it's utterly stupid to hire an atty to file bk......

1. The day I met with atty, I told them I had debt listed twice on my credit file. Later that day my spouse met with them and told them the same thing. It was even noted on the papers we left them.
The atty filed the 13 and ignored our request and now we have to pay the debt twice! (4 K) When I call the atty office they say:
"well I dont know what to tell you"
"i dont know what to do since this is already filed with the courts"
"well the papers are in the back and I am just not sure".

I kept pushing and told them this was a 4k mistake and I needed to get it handled. What do I do now?

2.
My payment plan equals 82 months and can only go 60?

3. The courts want my 401 K payment when its done.....
Dang we will never be able to save for emergency car repair with our high BK payment then...?

4. The atty is likely going to raise my pmt TOO :O
Why cant the 401 K payment handle that $$???

5. Why did my atty tell me I was paying "pennies on the dollar" when I seem to be paying back 120% of what I started with?

6. at the 314 meeting I heard someone say 3% regading my debt?
How on earth can 120% payback equal 3% of anything.

7. My atty left off our "over draft" balance due to credit union and now they are hounding us over the balance.

8. The credit union refuses to close our bank account thats empty and keeps charging us monthly fees! We sent them a second letter today with the darn fees and again telling them the account was to be closed months ago? They account has $ money nor do we use it. Can they refuses to close it? Is this some sort ofg scam to keep making $ of bankrupt people?

9 We closed out Direct TV account forever ago and have had no tv for months. Direct did not close the acct and is now hounding us for payments :O We finally forced them to close it but they want $ for the time THEY failed to close it the first time.

For the record I had only one bad debt (care credit) which is also listed as Arrow on my credit file but with a new account number. (I have notes from CC and arrow to back that up.

The main reason we files is we were scammed and this was the only way to resolve the issue.
Our state implemented a voucher program for special needs kids.
You take your school special needs funds and send it to a private school.
We tried this and had a special needs school lie to us. They said they could accommodate a high functioning child with aspe*rgers ansd that they had other students like him. Our son is on gifted education in reg ed but is bullies a lot.
Anyways turns out this "school" was ran more like a sitting service for severe and profound students. Those students required things like diaper changes and feedings. You can imagine the schooling my son did not get.
Anyway this school planned to sue us for lost state voucher funds and threatened to tack on thousands of atty fees.

This is the reason we filed 13 but of course were forced to add other debts.

Other questions I have:

a. we will have one child enter college during our bankruptcy.
b two becoming 16 and driving ages.
c proms and graduation expenses
d cars for the same 2 kids (beaters was the original plan but now???)
e we have family members with MAJOR medical expenses that are climbing...
f our house is making one of our children sick, Its a new house that sadly came with water problems. The repairs and medical supplies to combat this are killing me. And we are not even 1/2 way through the house accomodationms. We cant give up this spotless, mostly allergy free home to just go rent a house with even more allergins?

I am feeling so overwhelmed and hopeless.
13 was supposed to be a relief but so far its been worse and not better?

Thanks if you can help.........

[JustFileSuit]

Your bankruptcy petition has been poorly handled (dare I say: malpractice?). A few pointers (and you have so many problems I really suggest you go to a new attorney are review what has happened; your current man seems incompetent on the face of it.).

1. BK Petitions and Schedules are ROUTINELY AMENDED! Just because the 4K (or anything else) was double-posted does not mean that it is cast in stone! It is not clear to me from your Post if your Plan was Confirmed at this point or not. If not, then just file an Amended Schedule and Amended Plan. Done all the time. If it was Confirmed, then your atty should file a Motion to the Court to correct the "Scrivener's error" and as the BK Court is inherently a Court of equity this will be routinely granted.

2. as to the credit-union bank: did they have "actual knowledge" of the Filing? If they did, then the issue of being left off the creditor's matrix is immaterial. there is case-law out there that states that Actual Knowledge is the same as if they were on the list and received Notice from the Court. their actions are in violation of the Automatic Stay (if they have actual knowledge - did you tell them?) in which case your counsel brings an Adversary Proceeding asking for damages and sanctions. the Court will get very upset and whack them with serious sanctions. I have seen sanctions as high as $500,000. And that cash goes directly to you! (See my other posts for the details).

3. I have no idea why you are at 82 months. I never heard of it. Ch 13plans should top out at 60. Typically you pay the "secured debt" e.g. the house mortgage and you pay a small fraction of the unsecured debt, dependent on your income stream. From what you describe, the Plan has been set up poorly. Another reason to consult with someone new.

4. Direct TV are notorious morons. If they write you even ONE dunning letter then you file for a Motion for Sanctions in the USBC naming them as respondents for violating the automatic stay and ask for damages. And/or file an adversary proceeding and go the same route as with the credit union.

5. As to the special school that was a fraud - you can and should sue the School outfit within the USBC in an Adversary proceeding, and ask for your money back, plus damages. You will collect. From what you say, that is a 100% win for you - they will get hammered.

6. I have no idea why your 401K is getting sucked into your bankruptcy. It is considered "public policy" to treat retirement funds as exempt from creditor attachment on the public-policy grounds that society wants you to save for your retirement so that you will not be a burden on the taxpayers when you are antique. Again, there is something all screwed up here. You need a new counsel - somebody who knows exactly what he is doing. I cannot advise you on the 401 issue as that is outside my area of expertise.

7. If you have a new house and it has water problems and is making your child sick, then you sue the house builder, the person who sold it to you, the real-estate agent who did the deal and the mortgage company that hired the inspector when you signed the Note, all in the USBC (Bankruptcy court) and ask for money damages and other relief, including the costs of putting your family in a hotel while they make remedial repairs. that is what the BK Court is for. Your attorney should not be shy about using the Court as its remediation resource. Since he is, he is either incompetent or just plain stupid. You have to get out from underneath all this Bulls++t and on with your lief and that is exactly what the USBC is uniquely structured to accomplish, so: go ahead and file your suits (as adversary proceedings) Sure, you will have about five or six going on at the same time, but remember: the respondents thereto are facing the real possibility of getting totally hammered by the Judge, so more likely than not they will settle with you first to get out from underneath that big $500,000 fine.

REMEMBER (and this is for all you post reader out there): the USBC is designed to sort out all these problems. So don't be shy about using the resource! Congress built the USBC precisely to be the vehicle to sort this nonsense out.

In the future, poster, try to come back with very specific questions so that we can help you in a more focussed way. You need a ton of help, that's for sure. We are out here for you. Best wishes.

[Flamingo]

Well, first you have a complex situation and a ton of questions that should have been addressed to and answerd by your counsel. Without figures or more details, no one can give ou any sort of correct response as to what is going on as to your Plan. Your posting is a bit all over the place. 401(K) funds are exempt in BK filings and you mention "payment" - is that a loan payment or are they eliminating what you contributed each month to your 401(k)? Again, a bit confusing.

If you post more detailed information, you will probably get more folks to help you out. With what is there, it's difficult. My first impression, though, isi that I believe you truly cannot afford to keep your house and that is part of the struggle for you.

[justbroke]

I'm interested, but it's just too much to digest. Also, SoSueMe, I mean JustFileSuit suggest filing complaints. First, it reads as though your attorney probably wouldn't litigate that anyhow. Second, complaints (Adversary Proceedings (AP)) cost a lot of money and you'd have to pay a hefty retainer just to get one started (probably $2,000 and up) -- unless this is a case that can be done on contingency. While it's fun -- I think it is -- to file complaints, they are miniature lawsuits and are no joke. They have all the trimmings of a full court procedure, with witnesses, and even a jury if necessary.

Life is what happens when you're in an active Chapter 13 Bankruptcy. (copyright pending )

Your attorney should be working for you. Things change during a Chapter 13 and when it changes, you contact your attorney to Modify your Confirmed Plan. Life is what happens when you're busy doing other things. Make sure your attorney will work for you. You can not have your attorney address a future problem in your current plan. Just doesn't work that way. But, you can warn them of impending changes in the family. Just because 2 more "drivers" are coming into the family, doesn't mean you get 2 more cars. You have to understand the rules or at least have them explained to you in detail. Ask to sit down with your attorney for an hour or two if you don't understand it all. I highly suggest the sit down since you don't understand percent paybacks... which you (technically) shouldn't care about anyhow. You should be worried about your budget and how to live on that budget.

That's all for now.

[oldhack]

Might I proffer that the lack of specificity and personal responsibility for schedules, data, et al, that are the filer's brief, not the attorney's, suggest a troll?
If not -- well, I suspect I'd better not say more...

[JustFileSuit]

It is my understanding that jury trials are not permitted within the bankruptcy court system. Does anybody know different?

[JustFileSuit]

Our Poster has very serious problems with his house. It leaks water and is making his child ill. Probably has mold contamination. He is going to have to either abandon the property (just for health reasons) or fix the property, and to do that the builder and the parties that sold him the house need to be held accountable. I would suggest that the USBC is the cheapest forum to accomplish this. He doesn't get bogged down in the interminable byways of the State Court system and the matter will be in trial within a year. Further, the possibility of recouping damages, if a creditor is in the mix, are substantial.

Yes, his attorney probably will be reluctant to participate. But remember: the Court can Order the adverse parties to pay attorney fees as part of the equitable recovery within the USBC. A bankruptcy court is inherently a court of equity.

Not much point in having a Ch 13, paying out a ton of money,and ending up a prisoner in a house that has water leaks and health problems, including mold in the wallboard.

I invite comments from the readers here. Anybody have experience in this sort of thing?

[LALADY]

The OP needs an experienced environmental attorney to review their potential case. Most will not handle this type of case on a contingency basis, and it is not an inexpensive case to pursue unfortunately.

[justbroke]

It is my understanding that jury trials are not permitted within the bankruptcy court system. Does anybody know different?

See Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedure (FRBP) Rule 9015. The Bankruptcy Courtroom is setup for full blown trials, including a Jury Box as well as Petitioner and Respondent tables.

I will say, that they have and may be limited by jurisdictional issues. It was always intended for all things related to the Bankruptcy be handled by the Bankruptcy Court. So that meant dealing with any trials for which the Court had jurisdiction. However, I can't ever recall hearing of a "personal injury" case being litigated in the Bankruptcy Court.

[witeout]

I am not even going to address someone suspecting I am a troll.
I am not sure what they meant by the other comments? Are you saying I am not taking responsibility for getting our pay cut in half? Hubby works 80 hours a week, to help in any way possible?
Ouch, but I obviously have way bigger things to worry about than someone saying such negative things about a first time poster.

Ok so to clarify, my daughter is allergic to many environments, even her own school. It just so happens that my house is a crawl space,a big no no, my state is soaking wet lately, and our builder/contractor/real estate were all connected and they have all filed chapter 7 in 2005 and literally fell off the face of the earth. My neighbors apparently banned together and attempted to sue them.
Still though, it's not totally my builders fault. My daughter would be sick in other houses as well.

As far as suing the private school, I was told that I had a great case however it would cost me plenty to fight. I actually have worked hard on a state level to avoid other parents suffering through this voucher scam but that's not the scope of this site. I did my homework and from eye witnesses this school has a lot of litigation going all the time. I found all the docket cases online. They are often sued, garnished, and often sue others. They were sued for harming a student also. My son witnessed some things also that we believe we abusive to the seve and profound kids but we are just going there. You cant save the world ya know?

I have the opportunity in one week to meet with my atty (and not the para this time) to show him the data that they sent incorrectly. They just took the credit file as is and ignored all notes we gave them.
The para is the one who is unhelpful and it will be nice to have access to my actual atty this time. I am hoping to have the same debt as being listed as 2 debts corrected as I have proof.

As far as my 401 K , this is a payment plan. I will stop paying midway of the 13. They want that payment to then go into the plan.

I still have no answers as to why I am 82 months but the trustee said that had to be corrected.

I also still don't get why my info says 100% to some and 2% to others yet my payment plan is way more than 100% payback.

I noticed tonight that my atty fees were almost 4 times what we were told?
Surely that included some fees that I am just not aware of?

My biggest lesson has been the dealings with a para legal. I do not like that this is the person I always deal with. She just doesnt have the knowledge and says so many things that seem so uncaring and uninterested.
I get the feeling that they got my $ and now they dont care much about my case.

There really should be some guidelines for atty's.
Some warnings. Some alternatives listed.
They make it sound so easy and thats NOT the case at all.

At this point it may have been cheaper for me to negotiate our paycut with my creditors? I was just trying to avoid the lawsuit from the private school who kept threatening me.

Oh and a big PS...
I really don't understand how a new chapter 13 filer is supposed to manage to save? The week we filed we had a MAJOR car repair within 30 days.
We are too new to the program, just paid huge atty fees, and dealing with pay cuts....then the extra car repair.

How did you all start to save for emergencies when your chapter 13 payment is so high?
I know people mentioned me not affording my home but it's actually cheaper than renting because we put so much $ down.

For a peek at my budget, we cut to bare bones years before we filed 13.
We have no tv, no home phone, and I am a coupon extremist if you know what that is. I get coupons in mass quantity (100+) for free and only buy most things when they are free (sale + double coupon usually equals free).
Our van and truck are 14 years old but also have a 3 year old car.
We get a lot of free foods through my hubby work thankfully.

Anyways thanks again to those that tried to help me.
This has been much more stressful to me than when I saw people I know file 7. They have such a good life now and my situation is looking worse and worse and I am actually paying back things.......

O well...... 82 months (hopefully soon to be converted to 60??) will be over some day.

Thanks again.

[forgotten]

Just based on what you have said it sounds like your attorney doesn't really know what they are doing (anyone who would submit a 82 month plan obviously has issues).

Schedules are ammended all the time, if it was filed incorrectly you attorney need to ammend it. If the same debt got listed on your schedules twice doesn't mean you will pay it twice. The creditors have to then file a claim with the court to be paid, the same debt shouldn't actually have a claim filed for it twice, if so you can object to one of them.

If you really feel your attorney is not doing things correctly and is not assisting you in getting things corrected you can file a complaint with the bar in your state.

Cutting your budget bare bone before you filed might be what hurt you. Your 13 payment is based on your disposable income, if you created a bare bones budget you are stringing yourself too thin the next 5 years.

If you paid $60/mo for cable, $40 for home phone, and an extra $100 for food your chapter 13 payment would be $200 cheaper a month, get it? (obviously expenses have to be reasonable).

[Flamingo]

I responded to one of your other postings in another thread. There is no such thing as an 82 month Chapter 13 Plan. It sounds like you have a bankruptcy mill representing you. Also, there are reasons why you had to file Chapter 13; I am assuming you want to keep your house and/or other assets or your income is on the high side. There is just a lot of information that you have not posted and we have to guess as to the situation you are trying to explain to us - it's all over the place. But it appears you have a ton of questions that need to be addressed by either your present counsel or to take your matter to another attorney for review. You can always call your State Bar Association and complain if you feel you are not being represented properly and are not getting answers to your questions. They can advise you what to do. Look in the phone book under your "state" section for the listing and it may even be listed in the "lawyer" sectoin. with all the issues and questions you have, you need to make a list and get some answers from your attorney or other legal counsel.

[JustFileSuit]

I remain astonished at the awful string on unending bad events that has happened to your family, and I do extend to you my deepest sympathies.

The "School" no longer has the ability to press a claim against you; you are before the USBC with a Debtor's Filed Petition. If you get letters or phone calls from the School threatening you then your atty needs to file a Motion for Sanctions with the USBC. They will be sanctioned, and (probably) be Ordered to pay a fine (which monies should go to you). Always nice.

Your situation with the House is mind-boggling. It looks like there are no deep pockets left to file suit or a claim against. Since you purchased it as the first owners, was there a "Warranty?" If so, I would attack the bond. Is there any party involved in the transaction that remains standing? Did the attorney who represented the builder/vendor/real-estate firm make any representations to you(that would be a basis for claiming against him, and he may well have Errors and Omissions Insurance, or general liability insurance). What I foresee as ending up, if there is nobody left to claim against, is that you end up paying for a house within the Ch 13 that still has major issues, that will then have to be corrected on your dime. And you have no dimes for the next five years.

Here's a thought (and I invite the Community to chime in on this thought): go back to the Court and ask for a re-structuring of your total debts to be paid within your Ch. 13 on the grounds that major remedial repairs are required to the property to make it habitable.

Anybody have any experience with this approach?
Does this have any likelihood of success?

[JustFileSuit]

[=justbroke;361479]See Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedure (FRBP) Rule 9015.

The Bankruptcy Courtroom is setup for full blown trials, including a Jury Box as well as Petitioner and Respondent tables.

Amazing. I never heard of it. this must be very rare.

However, I can't ever recall hearing of a "personal injury" case being litigated in the Bankruptcy Court.

Yup, you have the famous case of the woman who at age 23(?) "married" the 88-year-old heir to the Johnson and Johnson fortune (was her name Anna Nicole Smith? Or do I have these "celebrities" confused?). There was a big dispute over the inheritance, and in the Probate Court she was cut short. So her smart attys filed for bankruptcy, and with the bk court taking original jusisdiction, the Probate Court Ruling was set aside, and the matter re-litigated. Not quite "personal injury," but pretty close! PS she got a ton. [I grant that I may have the details confused, but that was the drift of it. I recall vaguely that this took place in a Texas Court.]

[justbroke]

Amazing. I never heard of it. this must be very rare.

I hope to see such a trial one day, but I don't think they are all too common in consumer bankruptcies. Probably used more in Chapter 11 cases???