High trustee payment?

[Pandora]

+1 on all counts - momofthree, LadyInTheRed and NowImdown

The question I have is 2-fold; 1 part question 1 part concern. Reading Guest123's posts in regards to filing BK (7 or 13) is that maybe his/her lawyer isnt as experienced in BK as other lawyers. Being told you do not qualify for a Ch. 7 because you are over the median isnt true, means test is part of the equation. Yet being put in a 13 plan doesnt make sense either as the lawyer is including OT issued twice throughout the year (Nov and May according to Guest123). That in itself is a huge red flag as OT should not be included for a Ch. 13 payment plan - but if you get it afterwards (confirmed) then yes, the trustee can take it and use it to pay your creditors, but it shouldnt be part of your payment. Guest123 stated that he/she does not qualify for a Ch. 13 without the OT added in according to his/her lawyer - that seems very wrong and against everything 13 is based on. I'm very worried that the lawyer has stated that the payment is "only $500" yet secured vehicles (2 cars and 2 quads) total almost $1100 according to posts. If those are to be kept, then that would be a minimum start for payment plus trustee and lawyer fees if appropriate. So where is the extra $600? Am I misunderstanding something here? If I am, please let me know.

I would hate to see someone get stuck in a 13 plan that they couldnt afford and were forced into due to an inexperienced attorney. There is no reason to file now using the last 6 months that included OT pay, that in itself will cause the DMI to be higher than it really is and unless the OT pay is set aside for the entire year in order to make payments, then its bound to fail before it even begins.

If Guest123 would read others posts and replies from an objective point of view vs. an emotional one - he/she might be able to see that we're trying to help them and not gang up on them.

[Guest123]

+1 on all counts - momofthree, LadyInTheRed and NowImdown

The question I have is 2-fold; 1 part question 1 part concern. Reading Guest123's posts in regards to filing BK (7 or 13) is that maybe his/her lawyer isnt as experienced in BK as other lawyers. Being told you do not qualify for a Ch. 7 because you are over the median isnt true, means test is part of the equation. Yet being put in a 13 plan doesnt make sense either as the lawyer is including OT issued twice throughout the year (Nov and May according to Guest123). That in itself is a huge red flag as OT should not be included for a Ch. 13 payment plan - but if you get it afterwards (confirmed) then yes, the trustee can take it and use it to pay your creditors, but it shouldnt be part of your payment. Guest123 stated that he/she does not qualify for a Ch. 13 without the OT added in according to his/her lawyer - that seems very wrong and against everything 13 is based on. I'm very worried that the lawyer has stated that the payment is "only $500" yet secured vehicles (2 cars and 2 quads) total almost $1100 according to posts. If those are to be kept, then that would be a minimum start for payment plus trustee and lawyer fees if appropriate. So where is the extra $600? Am I misunderstanding something here? If I am, please let me know.

I would hate to see someone get stuck in a 13 plan that they couldnt afford and were forced into due to an inexperienced attorney. There is no reason to file now using the last 6 months that included OT pay, that in itself will cause the DMI to be higher than it really is and unless the OT pay is set aside for the entire year in order to make payments, then its bound to fail before it even begins.

If Guest123 would read others posts and replies from an objective point of view vs. an emotional one - he/she might be able to see that we're trying to help them and not gang up on them.

The flaw I see is everyone thinks there is just one rule to bankruptcy and I have found there isn't!
There is more to your payment then DMI based off your case!

My lawyer is experienced in bankruptcy more then those that are giving advice in this area.
I asked questions here that no one had answers to and now they somehow have a magic answer to.
There is nothing emotional about it just can't see what makes it so hard for a few to understand when it is written in the most simplist form that is relevant to the topic!

Back to me:
I have done the Means test over and over, by myself and with the lawyer, I would really love to hear from those that think they know more then my lawyer. Each and every time I am above the median and told I don't qualify for a ch7. The attoney we have is experienced with our work and knows what we need to do.
If you can read back you would see our ot is twice a year EVERY year and there is no way to wait till there is a 6month look back without it.

So bottom line is you say DMI is the ultimate rule to how much you will pay in a ch.13 and I submitted a way it is not, and one that is relevant to the thread. Ofcourse there are other ways for it to work as there are many different cases/situations.

Pandora I see as someone that doesn't like to be wrong and always wants the last word.
I never said it always works this way and agreed that DMI plays a part...BUT there are other factors. You would have to be an idiot to say DMI is what you will pay no matter what!

[LadyInTheRed]

each and every time I am above the median and told I don't qualify for a ch7.

If your attorney is telling you that you don't qualify for a chapter 7 ONLY because your income is above the median, you should find another attorney. The means test has two parts. If you are under median income, you stop after the first part. If you are over median, you continue to the second part to see if your DMI is low enough to qualify for a 7. From what I've read on these boards, there are many attorneys who simply don't want to deal with an over the median Chapter 7 because it will get more scruitiny from the trustee and may require more work by the attorney.

I never said it always works this way and agreed that DMI plays a part...BUT there are other factors. You would have to be an idiot to say DMI is what you will pay no matter what!

So bottom line is you say DMI is the ultimate rule to how much you will pay in a ch.13 and I submitted a way it is not

No you haven't.

Plan payment = DMI. If your schedules do not show sufficient DMI to cover the minimum amounts that must be paid during your plan [priority debt, liquidation test amount, secured car payment that your district requires you pay through your plan, attorney fees and trustee fee], your plan will not be confirmed. So, debtors who find themselves in this situation lower their expenses to show a higher DMI because DMI is the "ultimate rule" for determining your plan payment.

[Pandora]

....
Pandora I see as someone that doesn't like to be wrong and always wants the last word.
I never said it always works this way and agreed that DMI plays a part...BUT there are other factors. You would have to be an idiot to say DMI is what you will pay no matter what!

Again, we were trying to help you but...since you seem to know me so very well and that my post was about "having the last word"..... then by all means - continue on your plotted course with your experienced lawyer and your own utmost authority and knowledge on BK.

[Guest123]

If your attorney is telling you that you don't qualify for a chapter 7 ONLY because your income is above the median, you should find another attorney. The means test has two parts. If you are under median income, you stop after the first part. If you are over median, you continue to the second part to see if your DMI is low enough to qualify for a 7. From what I've read on these boards, there are many attorneys who simply don't want to deal with an over the median Chapter 7 because it will get more scruitiny from the trustee and may require more work by the attorney.





No you haven't.

Plan payment = DMI. If your schedules do not show sufficient DMI to cover the minimum amounts that must be paid during your plan [priority debt, liquidation test amount, secured car payment that your district requires you pay through your plan, attorney fees and trustee fee], your plan will not be confirmed. So, debtors who find themselves in this situation lower their expenses to show a higher DMI because DMI is the "ultimate rule" for determining your plan payment.

Like I have said we did the mean test and didn't qualify for ch.7.......


There are people on here that have given up some expenses to pay a high payment plan because of secure/priority debts! Are you saying there is not?
In their case and MY case just paying your DMI is not what it is...plain and simple.

I don't see why we are still having this discussion when all you are doing is repeating what I said but continue to say DMI is the ultimate rule when you just posted in certain situations it is not.

In my eyes giving up expenses does not equal DMI! Maybe this is where we are not on the same page.
And agian your post as others are not on topic, which I feel mine is.
If the poster doesn't have the DMI for the proposed plan payment then whats the deal.......common sense tells me there are secured/priority debt that needs to be paid in the plan!

[Guest123]

Again, we were trying to help you but...since you seem to know me so very well and that my post was about "having the last word"..... then by all means - continue on your plotted course with your experienced lawyer and your own utmost authority and knowledge on BK.

I call it like I see it. And I would say the others are more helpful then have been so if I have driven you away then good riddens!

[SunkShip]

In my eyes giving up expenses does not equal DMI!

Unfortunately expecting debtors to give up some expenses is how trustees calculate DMI. Many higher income earners will have higher expenses, as they are accustomed to a certain lifestyle. Right or wrong the trustee can call some of those lifestyle expenses luxuries and take them out of the equation.

They do this because most filers do their best to maximize expenses and keep more of their money. Whereas the trustee is supposed to get that money for the creditors. Opposites at work, and since they are backed by legal power they can tell debtors what is allowed and what they are expected to give up in order to pay the Ch 13 payments. (Crappy, but true.)

[slg547]

DMI

I have looked over many questions and responses on this entire site. I completely understand the purpose of the site and that most people on here are not creditors. I think an eye on the side of the fence is warranted. The debtor in question here is mainly a child support creditor who has racked up more than 30K in arrears while being gainfully employed the entire time. Family court judge gave him plenty of time to pay up. Well that lasted one month and he is back to the same thing except now he has filed Chapter 13 for the sole purpose of delaying the arrears and to top it off is not paying current support once again.

When he calculated his DMI, he throws in enhanced expenses to lower DMI, to avoid paying just that much longer. To top it all off he will never, ever stay in Chapter 13 and is only using it to avoid paying to support his child...So when it it suggested that you raise your expenses above what they really are, it is simply unfair.....You incurred the debt...You are asking for a fresh start...Bankruptcy is allowing you to get the fresh start. The least you can do is be honest..everything I read on this site is basically a way to take advantage of your creditors and the "system"...Maybe it is time to take a look in the mirror.

[JEM]

Like I have said we did the mean test and didn't qualify for ch.7.......


There are people on here that have given up some expenses to pay a high payment plan because of secure/priority debts! Are you saying there is not?
In their case and MY case just paying your DMI is not what it is...plain and simple.

I don't see why we are still having this discussion when all you are doing is repeating what I said but continue to say DMI is the ultimate rule when you just posted in certain situations it is not.

In my eyes giving up expenses does not equal DMI! Maybe this is where we are not on the same page.
And agian your post as others are not on topic, which I feel mine is.
If the poster doesn't have the DMI for the proposed plan payment then whats the deal.......common sense tells me there are secured/priority debt that needs to be paid in the plan!

We will be over the median when we file due to some OT. We are basically out of time and can no longer wait it out. This is how our attorney explained it to me. Being over the median is only ONE part of the equation. If you don't pass the means test, the next step is looking at expenses to figure out how much you have left over--your DMI. He said even if that came out where you had some extra to pay into a CH13, it could be argued that the OT is NOT a guarantee. OT is the only thing pushing us over. The OT has been CUT WAY BACK now for dh, but because of a lawsuit we can't put filing off much longer.

Anyway, just thought I'd offer up what I have been told by my attorney.

[LadyInTheRed]

So when it it suggested that you raise your expenses above what they really are, it is simply unfair.....You incurred the debt...You are asking for a fresh start...Bankruptcy is allowing you to get the fresh start. The least you can do is be honest..everything I read on this site is basically a way to take advantage of your creditors and the "system"...Maybe it is time to take a look in the mirror.

Who suggested raising expenses above actual expenses? I've never seen anyone suggest that on this board, unless a debtor has lowered their expenses to an unlivable level to try to stay out of bankruptcy. This site educates debtors about their rights and how to navigate a confusing system. It also acts as a support group for people in similar situations going through difficult times in their lives. Don't worry about the creditors. I think they can protect themselves from mean old debtors taking advantage of them. They don't even have to when it comes to a debtor's expenses. The trustee is there to object to any unreasonable expenses claimed by debtors.

ETA: Who is the "debtor in question" you speak of? I see nothing in prior posts by the OP or Guest123 that says anything about child support debt or that suggests either is being dishonest. You're obviously just stirring the pot and I'm sorry I responded in the first place.

[parkd]

The only debt I have is the underwater amount on my house loan. I make a good salary and have a lot of DMI unfortunately. I would think that many people out there are in the same boat with the downturn in real estate. It makes ZERO logical sense imo for anyone to claim ch13 BK if they are going to be on a 100% repayment plan if their debt is primarily due to RE. You wreck your credit and for what? You still have to pay back the full amount. Much smarter imo to work out a payment plan with the bank or to even let it go to wage garnishment. At least in wage garnishment they will only get 25% of your monthly income. I could theoretically be coughing up 50% of my monthly income to pay back the full debt of a house that is underwater all because these same banks lent $300k to illegal alien deadbeats which is who took over my neighborhood prior to the crash. We had 70% drops in value from peak and the neighborhood has went to the dogs with trash and crime and major overcrowding. Ridiculous to think that I would EVER pay them back 100% of this debt and still end up with a BK on my record. Makes no sense at all.

[NowImDownInIt]

DMI

I have looked over many questions and responses on this entire site. I completely understand the purpose of the site and that most people on here are not creditors. I think an eye on the side of the fence is warranted. The debtor in question here is mainly a child support creditor who has racked up more than 30K in arrears while being gainfully employed the entire time. Family court judge gave him plenty of time to pay up. Well that lasted one month and he is back to the same thing except now he has filed Chapter 13 for the sole purpose of delaying the arrears and to top it off is not paying current support once again.

When he calculated his DMI, he throws in enhanced expenses to lower DMI, to avoid paying just that much longer. To top it all off he will never, ever stay in Chapter 13 and is only using it to avoid paying to support his child...So when it it suggested that you raise your expenses above what they really are, it is simply unfair.....You incurred the debt...You are asking for a fresh start...Bankruptcy is allowing you to get the fresh start. The least you can do is be honest..everything I read on this site is basically a way to take advantage of your creditors and the "system"...Maybe it is time to take a look in the mirror.

I don't really understand where you are coming from. Lowering your DMI will not affect what you owe in CS. CS is not dischargeable and when all is said and done, he will still owe whatever he owes. Your righteous indignation is unfounded. People in here are not trying to be "simply unfair", especially not to individuals such as yourself. Is the OP the debtor you speak of? If that is the case, that explains the high payment as CS is a priority debt and is required to be paid in full over the life of the plan. I would look at it this way, if my ex owed me $30K in CS arrears, I would welcome a 13 that would require him to pay it back.

[johnjan2009]

Sorry to hack this thread but I think my situation is related with an attorney pushing me to sign a chp13 plan with monthly payment of $1300 per mo.
Now, I went online for BK means test and my DMI(disposable mo. income) is negative($-450). Based on these info, do you guys think I can file chapter 13+ 2nd lien strip? If so, what will be my expected monthly payment on the chp13 plan and how it will be calculated since online showed negative/nill? My attorney told me that only chp13 can make me keep my house and car and other assets I have now.

Reason I'm turning to you guys for help is I consulted with an attorney in my area.. He told me he can get me into a chp13 plan to only pay atty fee+trustee admin fee of around $200 per mos and no need to worry about unsecured debts like cred cards plus my 2nd loan can be stripped. However, when we meet to review numbers, he almost forced me to sign chp13 BK paperworks which I said I cannot sign since I cannot afford the payment plan of $1300 per mos. What I notice though is he seemed to reduced the expenses I filled out before which when subtracted to my income it become as DMI=$1300.. He also have 2-DMI calculations, one which we see online when you google(also showing negative DMI) and one using formula income-expenses which in my case equals $1300.

I really appreciate anyone's thoughts and advise from this forum on how to make chp13 work for me and my family and be able to save our home.. I don't think I can afford to pay $1300 per mos..I know a lot of you have experience this with some attorneys already so please advise me on my situation..

thanks in advance and I appreciate any help you can extend..

-J

[newbie2]

Sorry to hack this thread but I think my situation is related with an attorney pushing me to sign a chp13 plan with monthly payment of $1300 per mo.
Now, I went online for BK means test and my DMI(disposable mo. income) is negative($-450). Based on these info, do you guys think I can file chapter 13+ 2nd lien strip? If so, what will be my expected monthly payment on the chp13 plan and how it will be calculated since online showed negative/nill? My attorney told me that only chp13 can make me keep my house and car and other assets I have now.

Reason I'm turning to you guys for help is I consulted with an attorney in my area.. He told me he can get me into a chp13 plan to only pay atty fee+trustee admin fee of around $200 per mos and no need to worry about unsecured debts like cred cards plus my 2nd loan can be stripped. However, when we meet to review numbers, he almost forced me to sign chp13 BK paperworks which I said I cannot sign since I cannot afford the payment plan of $1300 per mos. What I notice though is he seemed to reduced the expenses I filled out before which when subtracted to my income it become as DMI=$1300.. He also have 2-DMI calculations, one which we see online when you google(also showing negative DMI) and one using formula income-expenses which in my case equals $1300.

I really appreciate anyone's thoughts and advise from this forum on how to make chp13 work for me and my family and be able to save our home.. I don't think I can afford to pay $1300 per mos..I know a lot of you have experience this with some attorneys already so please advise me on my situation..

thanks in advance and I appreciate any help you can extend..

-J

It would be better if you started your own thread with as much information as you are comfy giving. We don't know the reason why your DMI when you do it is showing a negative, yet the attorney you consulted is showing a high payment.

There are so many variables: Assets that aren't exempt, priority payments (taxes, child support, etc), "stripping" the 2nd mortgage can bump that payment to going to your unsecureds, the amount of arrears on your first mortgage, etc.

Please start your own thread and detail what you can and we will surely try to help you walk through this.

[momofthree]

Sorry to hack this thread but I think my situation is related with an attorney pushing me to sign a chp13 plan with monthly payment of $1300 per mo.
Now, I went online for BK means test and my DMI(disposable mo. income) is negative($-450). Based on these info, do you guys think I can file chapter 13+ 2nd lien strip? If so, what will be my expected monthly payment on the chp13 plan and how it will be calculated since online showed negative/nill? My attorney told me that only chp13 can make me keep my house and car and other assets I have now.

Reason I'm turning to you guys for help is I consulted with an attorney in my area.. He told me he can get me into a chp13 plan to only pay atty fee+trustee admin fee of around $200 per mos and no need to worry about unsecured debts like cred cards plus my 2nd loan can be stripped. However, when we meet to review numbers, he almost forced me to sign chp13 BK paperworks which I said I cannot sign since I cannot afford the payment plan of $1300 per mos. What I notice though is he seemed to reduced the expenses I filled out before which when subtracted to my income it become as DMI=$1300.. He also have 2-DMI calculations, one which we see online when you google(also showing negative DMI) and one using formula income-expenses which in my case equals $1300.

I really appreciate anyone's thoughts and advise from this forum on how to make chp13 work for me and my family and be able to save our home.. I don't think I can afford to pay $1300 per mos..I know a lot of you have experience this with some attorneys already so please advise me on my situation..

thanks in advance and I appreciate any help you can extend..

-J

I agree with newbie, you really need your own thread. It sounds like you took the "means test" which is uses set numbers for your auto expenses & living expenses. However, it sounds like your actual expenses, that you put into your schedule J, are much lower than the IRS standards. For example, is your car payment less than $496? Is your rent less than the average for your area? Did you include your 2nd mortgage payment on the means test?

Also, did the check stubs you took with you include any overtime, bonuses, etc? That can also skew the numbers.