Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!) (updated: 04/28/2015)

Welcome to the Bankruptcy Forum. Bankruptcy (BK) Forum is known as and will be referred to as BKF hereinafter. In order to ensure a long term success of our vibrant community, we have established certain rules and guidelines to which everyone must adhere to. Please take your time to carefully read our rules, before you start to participate in the community.

Things you agree to do: (BKF) users agree to use the search function before starting a new thread. This prevents duplicate discussions and allows for better organized topics.

All BKF users agree to read the sticky posts which may be available at the top of a forum page. These Sticky posts often contain valuable information. They may also outline more rules and guidelines specific for that particular forum, stickies are put in place by that forums moderator(s) or admin(s).

Things you agree not to do:

All BKF users agree not to call people names or write a post simply to make a personal attack, or get a negative reaction; this behavior is not allowed on our forum. The use of derogatory language aimed at anyone will be severely dealt with. There is no need to agree with each other, or to even like each other. However, by signing onto you agree to treat each member and guest with the respect they deserve. No threats or personal attacks will be allowed.

All BKF users agree not to discuss, engage, or encourage any behavior or activity which violates the law. Discussion of drugs, violence, murder, theft, vandalism, fraud or any other issue which could be used to help individuals break the law is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to "bump" old threads, unless there is a specific benefit to the community by doing so. But in most cases, please don't post in very old threads, instead start new threads.

All BKF users agree not to attempt/use another members account. It is against BKF rules to use any account other than your own. Impersonating another member will result in an immediate ban. It is also against the rules to open more than one account in your own name without permission from a moderator or administrator. If you have been banned for any reason, it is against the rules to open another account. If you were banned temporarily and you are caught using another account you will be banned permanently. Choosing a moniker which is similar in either sound or spelling as a moderator or administrator is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to private message any moderator, admin, or other member with questions related to their personal circumstances (Questions about the forum or issues with the forum are ok). This forum only works when members share their experience and insights with everyone.

Things you agree not to post:
All BKF users agree not to post any derogatory/racist/or sexist remarks. This includes attachments, links and all information contained within posts, signatures, and avatars, failure to comply with this rule will result in a permanent ban.

All BKF users agree not to post any copyrighted or trademarked information without the express written permission of the owner(s) / proper citation of source.

All BKF users agree not to post any real names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, social security numbers, or any other personal details (their own or other people's).

All BKF users agree not to post links, pictures, attachments, videos, or the like of pornographic content, objectionable material or extreme violence, whether cartoon or real.

All BKF users agree not to use BKF for advertising purposes without a written contract between yourself/company/agent and the administration of BKF. Blatant advertising will result in a ban.

All BKF users agree not to spam the forums. Spam includes but is not limited to posting erroneous, non-relevant-useless, off-topic, or meaningless posts. Spam may also include posts which contain no text, or large areas of blank space between lines. Simply posting emoticons without text is considered spam. BKF is the largest bankruptcy message board and all the content is intended to help other users. Please help us improve the quality of our forum by making sure that your posts are well-worded, spell checked, grammatically correct and syntaxed.

Regarding actions of moderators and administrators:

The forum is no place to air out your opinion or be judgmental of our staff and its capabilities.

All BKF users agree not to abuse or mistreat moderators or administrators. It is against BKF rules to post any information regarding bans or any other action taken by a member of the moderating or administrative team. If you wish to discuss bans or warnings please do so via PM. To place a complaint against a moderator, send a PM to a super moderator. All Moderators are equal, any decision made by a moderator must be adhered to. If a moderator tells you something you do not like, do not go to another moderator looking for a different answer. If you are caught doing this you will be banned. The moderators work as a team and respect the decisions made by their peers and will help enforce them unless an administrator tells them differently.
If you have an issue with how the forum is run, then notify one of our administrator and we will look into the situation. We have in the past and still do appreciate any input that you offer this forum. But critical input and/or judgmental postings towards the staff will result in you getting banned.

Should you find a thread offensive or out of line, then notify a Mod in a PM so they can evaluate the situation and do the action deemed necessary.

All moderators do have active "other" lives outside of the forum and help moderate this forum in their spare time throughout the days and weeks.

If you have a problem with a member or Mod follow the proper channels of reporting it.

BKF reserves the right to delete any posts which contain anti-BKF comments or discussion. Any bashing of moderators or administrators, or any of their discussion or actions will also be deleted, and the responsible posting party(s) will be banned. Any public anti-BKF advertising, communication, or posts on another forum will result in permanent bans as well.

All warnings and bans are decided by individual moderators and administrators. Warnings are preferable to bans however, for serious offenses and repeat abusers bans will go into effect. The length of the bans can vary from several hours to permanent.

All messages posted or sent including through PM are the property of

All BKF users agree not to advertiser on the forum (Niether by posting, private messaging or using your signature). If you are a company/attorney/legal adviser wishing to advertise on the site or sell a product, you must contact the head administrator and inquire about our advertising packages.

All bankruptcy related opinions expressed on are those of their authors and not necessarily of BKF, its staff or representatives.

You agree not to copy any material/post/content from BKF without written permission from our head administrator .

By posting on this forum you agree to these terms and conditions, including any punishment deemed appropriate by moderators or administrators in the event of an offense.

Administrators/Moderators can change these rules at any time without prior notice.
See more
See less

Chapter 13 question

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Chapter 13 question


    My attorney just told me that it doesn't matter if my rent is $1000/month or $3000/month. Either way, I have to pay back to the trustees the amount that the means test determines that I have available every month.

    If the means test determines that I have $300 available every month, and my rent increases from $1000 to $1500, I would still be required to make the same Chapter 13 payment every month.

    Any thoughts on that?

    Thank you!

  • #2
    It is true that your payment would not be automatically decreased if your rent increased. But, if you have a permanent and verifiable decrease in your disposable income, you should be able to petition to modify the plan. I have no personal experience with this, but that is my understanding from reading other people's experiences.

    Talk to another attorney.
    LadyInTheRed is in the black!
    Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
    $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!


    • #3
      Yeah, it sounds weird to me.

      If I moved in with a friend or my parents and paid $100 in rent, I'm sure I'd be required to pay the other $900 towards the Chapter 13 plan (assuming the rent is $1k).

      Now if I need to move and my rent goes up, why would I still be required to make the same payment as before?

      It doesn't make sense to me....


      • #4
        If you're below the median in your state, you don't have to worry about filling out parts 4, 5, and 6 of the means test. The presumption is your payment is whatever your budget shows, and there isn't a set amount that you should have to pay back (if I understand the rules correctly). If you look at the top right corner of your means test form (B22C), you'll see four boxes:

        According to the calculations required by this statement:
        The applicable commitment period is 3 years.
        The applicable commitment period is 5 years.
        Disposable income is determined under § 1325(b)(3).
        Disposable income is not determined under § 1325(b)(3).
        (Check the boxes as directed in Lines 17 and 23 of this statement.)

        If you are below the median, your commitment period is three years, and your disposable income is what your budget supports, not what the means test says you should have to pay. If that's the case for you, then you don't have to worry about what your attorney is telling you (that you have to pay whatever B22C presumes you can afford). Instead, you pay based on your expenses and actual DMI left over each month. If you're above the median, then § 1325(b)(3) applies to you, and you'll have to make whatever payments parts 4, 5, and 6 calculate you can afford.
        Filed No Asset Ch. 7, pro se, 08/18/2008
        341 meeting is 09/25/2008
        Last day for objections is 11/24/2008
        Discharged: 11/28/2008


        • #5
          Wunsche's income is above median.

          Whether you are above median or not, your plan should be based on your projected disposable income. If there are changes since the 6 months before filing or there are future changes that are reasonably certain at the time of confirmation, the court can take your expected income into account even if it is different than shown on the means test. This is pursuant to the Supreme Court Ruling in Hamilton v. Lanning which I believe actually ruled against a debtor whose dmi increased. By the same logic Wunsche used above, the case can be used to support a lower plan payment when there is a reasonably certain decrease in income.

          Wunsche, I really think you should move before you file. Then, there will be no question as to whether your decrease in dmi is reasonably certain and you won't have to bother with modifying your plan later. If you are going to claim your dmi is lower than shown on the means test, then you need to prove that. But, my impression from your other thread is that with your current rent, your means test dmi will end up lower than your schedule I/J dmi because you have very low rent.
          LadyInTheRed is in the black!
          Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
          $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!


          • #6
            In most Districts, Schedule I and J are controlling. The Means Test (Form B22-C) is only a "starting" place when it comes to disposable monthly income (DMI). If your rent exceeds the local standards, the Trustee will complain about it. Additionally, many districts have their own "maximum" rent for the area and it is likely lower than the IRS standards! (e.g. if US Trustee/IRS gives $1,200 month for rent, the local District's Trustees may only allow $1,100.)

            If your are renting and it is exceeding the UST/IRS limits, you will be forced to find new accommodations as the court and Trustee will now allow you to supplant a "lavish" lifestyle to the detriment of the unsecured creditors.

            I believe when an attorney syas that a rent increase from $1,000 to $1,500 would not change the DMI, he is probably referring to the $1,000 as being the UST/IRS limit for rent for the debtor's family size. The debtor would need to move or squeeze the budget.
            Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
            Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
            Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

            I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.


            • #7
              jb, from another thread, the OP's current rent is about half of the local standards because s/he lives in a lousy neighborhood. S/he is considering moving. So, the concern is that the payment will be to high if based on current rent instead of rent that will be closer to what is allowed on the means test.
              LadyInTheRed is in the black!
              Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
              $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!


              • #8
                Thank you, Everyone!

                LadyInTheRed - You are correct. My current rent is half of IRS standards for the area. I've been looking for a new place to live, and don't plan on filing until after I move. I'm also looking for a new attorney. I'll be meeting with a new one in 2 weeks. I don't believe that the one who I've been working with has my best intersest in mind.

                I've completed the schedules I and J forms, and my monthly new income on schedule J is -$87. If my rent goes up, it will probably be -$587 or less.


                • #9
                  Again, if you post all of your income and expenses here, we can help you tweak.
                  At your salary, it is difficult to imagine how you wind up in the negatives. What are you spending all of that money on? I mean this in the most helpful way. Something is not right here. I believe you said you make 7k a month and live alone. You are NOT counting in your cc payments correct? and your school loan repayments? and you don't have extraordinary car or health costs. Are you repaying a 401K loan?
                  The more info you share, the better we can help you. Remember that you are anonymous here.

                  Keep On Smilin'


                  • #10
                    I agree with keepsmiling. That seems a low dmi for a 1 person household making $84K. When I filed, the gross income for my 2 person household was $76,500. My dmi, without reduction for my car payment because that is being paid in the plan, was $500. And that was before the 9th Circuit Court of Appeal ruled that payments on 401k loans were not allowable deductions. Without that deduction, my dmi would have been $800. I'm in one of the most expensive counties in California to live in.
                    LadyInTheRed is in the black!
                    Filed Chap 13 April 2010. Discharged May 2015.
                    $143,000 in debt discharged for $36,500, including attorneys fees. Money well spent!


                    Unconfigured Ad Widget