Have lost all hope.

[SinkingFast]

Okay so receipts are not mandatory when you turn in the schedule J but they could ask for them at anytime. So for example, we spend about $100 or so a week for groceries. If they question that and ask for receipts, how many weeks worth will they want? Will they say, "Let us see a couple of your weekly gorcery bills" or will they ask fo 3 months worth?

How do you figure expenses that aren't montly on J but are still needs? Like bedsheets, we haven't bought new ones in maybe 3-4 years but I'd guess most folks would buy some every 6 months to a year? Say new sheets cost a $150 a year would you just divide it by 12 and put that amount on J as the monthly portion for sheets?

One last question, (for this post anyway! ) how much does bk cost in general? How much is the average total cost if you have a bk lawyer do it?

Thank you so much for all the welcomes and advice so far! It feels so good not to be alone, you all don't know how much I already appreciate this forum.

The only people who've posted here that were actually asked to show receipts were people filing after their businesses died. Former owners of S corps, or similar business set-ups, who could bring their business debts in under a Personal BK.

There have been some people asked to show the last 6 months to a year of CC and/or bank statements. Generally that's when you run up a lot of debt in a very short period of time. Also, in excess of $100K in unsecured debt can be a red flag for the Trustee or the US Trustee's office. Depends on your particular totality of circumstances. If you had a job loss and took a new job for less money. Had major medical expenses. Things like that.

When we met with our attny, I told them $75/mo for home maintenance. That's what I fig'd I had spent for new bed linens, bath linens, curtains, and such in the last year. We are currently renters. Our attny entered our Schedule J with $0 for Home Maint. I guess renters here are not allowed that expense.

Yep, that's exactly how you get a number for those things. Take the amount the items cost, how many you'd buy, add it all up, and divide by 12.

Here's a link to a BK Expense Calculator for you:

http://www.ca-bankruptcy-attorneys.c...alculator.html

This will help you think of lots of everyday expenses many of us forget to include in our budgets.

[lrprn]

I have been trying to keep up my minimum payments by forgoing everything we need and eating cheap food. I have three pairs of pants for heavens sake!
My minimum on one card is $475 a month where as the others are $55, $199 and $100. I havent seen a dentist in a few years, so should I be doing those things rather than paying on the card? Wont they garnish my husbands wages? We were only three weks late on a loan (the $475) and they told uis we were going into collection in two more weeks!!! They said legal action would be taken in eight weeks. So if I continue to pay $475 and the others less we will have to go to court even though they were minimum payments??

This is such a headache. If I ever get another cc again in my life I hope my hand catches fire. Really.
Its bad enough we wont have our tax return I suppose next year, a $4,000 check between EIC and low wages from a crappy federal job. We depended on it every year. Our only TV left blew up last night! I really hoped to buy a few things like a Tv, some clothes & pay for some dental work.
UGH!!!
Whatamess.

We all feel your frustration, whatamess.....most of us have been right where you are right now.

You should only stop paying your credit cards if you are absolutely committed to filing bankruptcy and plan to do so within six months.

Going into collections just means you are headed into 4-6 months of having your phone ringing off the hook being pestered to pay what you owe...verbal threats, that's all. Garnishment based on unsecured debt like credit cards and non-secured loans means the company has to take you to court - something that typically takes at least six months to get into motion, often much longer than that. (Secured debt is different - most mortgage and car companies will start repossession efforts in motion after two missed payments.)

It's late for this year, but you can adjust your withholding at any time. Here's a great link to IRS forms that help you figure out how much to withhold to get your amount withheld as near to zero as possible - http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p919.pdf . Well worth a visit for everyone who files bk to ensure your refund is as close to nothing as you can make it if your trustee is taking your tax return, he/she won't have much to take .

[HHM]

If you are going to be declaring BK anyway, then paying your monthly minimums on credit cards is throwing good money down the toilet. The threat of lawsuit is just saber rattling. If its a standard, national credit card, lawsuits don't typically get filed for 6-18 months...(its too costly), they would rather go through several rounds of cheap, non judicial collection.

If I were you, if your overall financial situation warrants it...go ahead and get the BK rolling, then AFTER the BK is complete (if its a chapter 7, or after plan confirmation if its a Chapter 13) go out and get a TV and dental work.

[Emmy]

You don't have to show any receipts initially. May never be asked to show receipts at all. Just depends on the wind, whether or not the Trustee has a bad hair day, if the Courts come down with some odd opinion,.......... Just suggesting you save receipts so you'll know what to tell attnys you spend for things. And as a CYA in case you get asked to verify some sort of expense.

Yep! You are right about the CC's payments money becoming disposable income every month. When you file BK, you don't include in your monthly expenses any debt you plan to discharge.

If you quit paying your payments today, what would you use that money for??

Maybe to buy the Health Ins you mentioned. I'd bet you've hardly been buying any clothes for a while and when you do, you pay with a CC. Do you buy groceries with a CC?? Pay cash instead.

Do you need to go to the doctor, dentist?? Car repairs?? House repairs?? Anything you've been putting off because you don't have the money, start taking care of those needs.

The Court doesn't mind necessities. Just don't go taking a lavish vacation with the money.

Also, you're gonna need money for filing fees, pre and post BK Certs, and attny's fee.

Plus, any Creditor that you pay in excess of $600 total to in the 90 days prior to filing BK, the Trustee is going to go back to those Creditors to get that money back. You may be required to appear in Court to explain those payments. Overall, just best not to go there if you can avoid it.

Yes we would use the cc payments for all of those things and maybe still not have enough left over to get all that we need. Sometimes I wonder how we are making it right now.

Okay so receipts are not mandatory when you turn in the schedule J but they could ask for them at anytime. So for example, we spend about $100 or so a week for groceries. If they question that and ask for receipts, how many weeks worth will they want? Will they say, "Let us see a couple of your weekly gorcery bills" or will they ask fo 3 months worth?

How do you figure expenses that aren't montly on J but are still needs? Like bedsheets, we haven't bought new ones in maybe 3-4 years but I'd guess most folks would buy some every 6 months to a year? Say new sheets cost a $150 a year would you just divide it by 12 and put that amount on J as the monthly portion for sheets?

One last question, (for this post anyway! ) how much does bk cost in general? How much is the average total cost if you have a bk lawyer do it?

Thank you so much for all the welcomes and advice so far! It feels so good not to be alone, you all don't know how much I already appreciate this forum.

[whatamess]

Huh?

I have been trying to keep up my minimum payments by forgoing everything we need and eating cheap food. I have three pairs of pants for heavens sake!
My minimum on one card is $475 a month where as the others are $55, $199 and $100. I havent seen a dentist in a few years, so should I be doing those things rather than paying on the card? Wont they garnish my husbands wages? We were only three weks late on a loan (the $475) and they told uis we were going into collection in two more weeks!!! They said legal action would be taken in eight weeks. So if I continue to pay $475 and the others less we will have to go to court even though they were minimum payments??

This is such a headache. If I ever get another cc again in my life I hope my hand catches fire. Really.
Its bad enough we wont have our tax return I suppose next year, a $4,000 check between EIC and low wages from a crappy federal job. We depended on it every year. Our only TV left blew up last night! I really hoped to buy a few things like a Tv, some clothes & pay for some dental work.
UGH!!!
Whatamess.

[lrprn]

Ok, I just figured out Schedule J and I vs the means test from searching on the site. This site is awesome by the way!

My question for J is how many months must you show receipts? If we stop paying the cc's and use that money for food, clothes, get myself some health insurance ( I currently have none)....we will not have any disposable income.

If I do keep paying the cc's, won't the 400-500 worth of cc payments show up as disposable income?

How do I work this so that the numbers will line up for my chapter 7? We are still 6 months away from filing. I planned on making cc payments until then but if it will screw up the disposable income part of our BK, I'll do whatever we need to do not to mess it up.

Emmy, it sounds like you need the money to pay for a lawyer and for car repairs, buying clothes, purchasing health insurance, etc. that you've put off for a while trying to pay your debts. The $400-500/mo can get eaten up that way for the next six months.

Paying your cc's up until you file does nothing for your case and won't make it go easier. It's just throwing away your good money to pay against something that will be wiped out in six months anyway. Far better to use that money to catch up on the legitimate living expenses you've been doing without for a long time.

[miss puff]

Hi Emmy *waves* Welcome to the boards. We have all been there, are still there or are planning to be there. Like Sinking Fast said, buy neccessary items that you need right now. You might be surprised that even without the monthly debt payments your income will be eaten up by neccessary items. Ours sure did. Even without all our debt that our chapter 7 will hopefully wipe out it could be easy to get in a pickle again if a major thing happened with us like job loss, car replacement or needing a new roof or something. Kind of an eye opener and wondered how we juggled for as long as we did. Good luck, breathe and try to sleep better. Many of us have had sleep issues and many more issues going through this so feel free to vent, ask questions and gather as much information as you need. Good luck hun *hug*

[debtisbad]

Hi Emmy,

Just wanted to stop by and say "hi" and welcome to our little corner of the world. We have all been where you are.

Debtisbad

[SinkingFast]

My question for J is how many months must you show receipts? If we stop paying the cc's and use that money for food, clothes, get myself some health insurance ( I currently have none)....we will not have any disposable income.

If I do keep paying the cc's, won't the 400-500 worth of cc payments show up as disposable income?

How do I work this so that the numbers will line up for my chapter 7? We are still 6 months away from filing. I planned on making cc payments until then but if it will screw up the disposable income part of our BK, I'll do whatever we need to do not to mess it up.

You don't have to show any receipts initially. May never be asked to show receipts at all. Just depends on the wind, whether or not the Trustee has a bad hair day, if the Courts come down with some odd opinion,.......... Just suggesting you save receipts so you'll know what to tell attnys you spend for things. And as a CYA in case you get asked to verify some sort of expense.

Yep! You are right about the CC's payments money becoming disposable income every month. When you file BK, you don't include in your monthly expenses any debt you plan to discharge.

If you quit paying your payments today, what would you use that money for??

Maybe to buy the Health Ins you mentioned. I'd bet you've hardly been buying any clothes for a while and when you do, you pay with a CC. Do you buy groceries with a CC?? Pay cash instead.

Do you need to go to the doctor, dentist?? Car repairs?? House repairs?? Anything you've been putting off because you don't have the money, start taking care of those needs.

The Court doesn't mind necessities. Just don't go taking a lavish vacation with the money.

Also, you're gonna need money for filing fees, pre and post BK Certs, and attny's fee.

Plus, any Creditor that you pay in excess of $600 total to in the 90 days prior to filing BK, the Trustee is going to go back to those Creditors to get that money back. You may be required to appear in Court to explain those payments. Overall, just best not to go there if you can avoid it.

[CAB_44]

Hi Emmy~ and WELCOME!
You are in the same boat that all of us are rowing sweetie~ just relax, or try to anyway...
I stopped paying my CC in July~ for the same reason....you just can't do it anymore....that's how I felt too....
I am going through the same feelings/emotions as you are... but when the dust settles, you will be glad you came to this decision~
it hurts, but when you stop and realize just how much better things will be down the road and that you'll finally see a light at the end of the tunnel, you'll begin to relax some!
There are SO many qualified people here that can help you through this tough decision!
I'm going through it myself and am still new, so I can't offer you much info, other than to say~ you'll be okay!
Blessings to you~
CAB

[Emmy]

Ok, I just figured out Schedule J and I vs the means test from searching on the site. This site is awesome by the way!

My question for J is how many months must you show receipts? If we stop paying the cc's and use that money for food, clothes, get myself some health insurance ( I currently have none)....we will not have any disposable income.

If I do keep paying the cc's, won't the 400-500 worth of cc payments show up as disposable income?

How do I work this so that the numbers will line up for my chapter 7? We are still 6 months away from filing. I planned on making cc payments until then but if it will screw up the disposable income part of our BK, I'll do whatever we need to do not to mess it up.

[Emmy]

You will want to wait a while before filing anyway. You need to put some time between you last charges and filing. There's a 70/90 day rule in the BK Law. 70 days on Cash Advances. 90 Days for CC purchases. If you file within that time frame, the burden of proof that the charges weren't made fraudulently falls on you. Wait til after that to file and the burden of proof shifts to the Creditors..

Yes, we are waiting until April and planning no more credit card use after this month.

If you are current on your CC payments up until recently, you'll probably have at least 6 months or so before any Creditors make a move legally. You'll get phone calls. First from internal collections, then from Collections Agencies after your accts get turned over. Use Caller ID if you have it. If you don't have Caller ID, use an answering machine to screen the calls. Answer when it's family and friends, don't answer when you don't recognize the numbers.

We were planning on continuing to to pay all of cc minimum payments up until we file. That means we will be totally broke until then but we thought it would make the bk proceeding go smoother as far as the creditors because our cards won't be totally maxed and we made the attempt to pay what we could before filing.

[SinkingFast]

I think I read on this forum before that the trustee cant touch your returns anyway if it was from EIC and child tax credit. Is that accurate? It sounds like most of this refund would be from those sources, I might be wrong though.

That is the rule, CVA. You are correct there. There have been posters that got refunds because they had children where they would not have gotten a refund otherwise. The Court took the returns regardless.

I guess this is one of those issues that varies District to District and Trustee to Trustee.

[SinkingFast]

There are a couple of ways you can go at the Refund.

As Jeepy suggested, change your withholdings for the rest of the year. Get more money in the paychecks now and have less of a refund coming next year.

Or, file your taxes early, before you file BK. Get that refund back ASAP and spent before you ever retain an attny and file BK. Keep your receipts as Lost suggested, to prove you spent the money on necessities.

You will want to wait a while before filing anyway. You need to put some time between you last charges and filing. There's a 70/90 day rule in the BK Law. 70 days on Cash Advances. 90 Days for CC purchases. If you file within that time frame, the burden of proof that the charges weren't made fraudulently falls on you. Wait til after that to file and the burden of proof shifts to the Creditors.

If you are current on your CC payments up until recently, you'll probably have at least 6 months or so before any Creditors make a move legally. You'll get phone calls. First from internal collections, then from Collections Agencies after your accts get turned over. Use Caller ID if you have it. If you don't have Caller ID, use an answering machine to screen the calls. Answer when it's family and friends, don't answer when you don't recognize the numbers.

If you're below the Median, you don't have to complete the Means Test. You use Form B22A and stop at Line 15. Then, the issue of disposable income comes down to a comparison of Schedule I to Schedule J. I is income. J is your real expenses.

When figuring your expenses, don't include any payments to Creditors that you will discharge in BK.

[Minnymouth]

I used my tax refund to pay my attorney....... no problem from Trustee.....
Keep good receipts on what you use it for.....