Ch.7 dismissed due to "abuse" AND "totality of circumstances"

[hereforinfo]

Why not try to help the OP, rather than get bogged down in trying to find fault in where he is in life?

Yes, but you also have to consider the DEBT level as well. I think someone with that income could reasonably afford 2 $40k cars, but not if they can't afford to pay other debts. Apparently that's the trustee's opinion as well - with more reasonable car payments there would be money left to fund a 13.

[Liore1477]

Hereforinfo - it sounds like you are the Trustee sympathizer or a Trustee himself lurking in this board.

I am not getting your penchant to lecture some people on how imprudent or bad they are... and all of this from Trustee's standpoint. I have my atty to relay this info. I am on this board to share experiences and get advice, not to get lectured.

Oh, and one other thing. I am reporting your post to Kia HQ in USA for offending their brand name and reputation.

[Kpower]

As the owner of two Kia's I am a little offended by those remarks. I can't be too offended though since I bought them because they are cheaper. I needed a specific vehicle type in both cases and they were the only cars I could afford in that class. The first was an suv that I needed for work and the second was minivan that I needed for the kids. I drive my Kia's proudly knowing that my family is provided for. If you want to snicker at me that's fine, while you are at it I have a Dynex tv and I buy some generic food items too.

[backtoschool]

Well, I traded in my saab 9-3 (ie, a $40,000 car) for a hyundai elantra as part of my pre-bankruptcy planning, and LOVE the elantra.

[Liore1477]

As the owner of two Kia's I am a little offended by those remarks. I can't be too offended though since I bought them because they are cheaper. I needed a specific vehicle type in both cases and they were the only cars I could afford in that class. The first was an suv that I needed for work and the second was minivan that I needed for the kids. I drive my Kia's proudly knowing that my family is provided for. If you want to snicker at me that's fine, while you are at it I have a Dynex tv and I buy some generic food items too.

Kpower, that's exactly what I am saying... how can anyone say "Hope you get financed at Kia dealership", as Hereforinfo said? That really implies that Kia is the last resort type of car.... And it is not the case. I got some solicitations from Ford dealership, too.

[bkmaggster]

I am on this board to share experiences and get advice, not to get lectured.

One man's advice is another man's lecture. It's all perception. If you can take the emotions out of it and mentally filter the information, you may find some great wisdom here. In combined experience, people here have about seen it all.

In the end, as you know, the only opinion that matters is the trustee's.

And for the record, I know everyone on this forum secretly envies my sweet bicycle and my bus pass...LOL

[Liore1477]

One man's advice is another man's lecture. It's all perception. If you can take the emotions out of it and mentally filter the information, you may find some great wisdom here. In combined experience, people here have about seen it all.

In the end, as you know, the only opinion that matters is the trustee's.

And for the record, I know everyone on this forum secretly envies my sweet bicycle and my bus pass...LOL

Bkmaggster, I agree it's all about perception. I would add that we all have different communication styles, and while one person puts it politely, another one may be very blatant and downright rude. So I take no offense whatsoever because only I and my close circle know my life circumstances, and no one else does.

[goingcrzy]

The opposite of what?[/QUOTE]

Oh, I meant the opposite of the McMansion case, where the owners where dismissed because of high secured debt. I can't find any cases after the McMansion case where the debtors were dismissed because of a high payment.

[aces67]

We came under scrutiny of the UST. We got through it and ours wasn't for car notes but I'm thinking that what the UST is thinking is this:

It is not NECESSARY to have 2 cars @ $40 K each and if you didn't have those then you would have extra money to put towards your other debts.

The UST looked at our case closely and even questioned the fact that I don't work and that we are putting a money in dh's 401K. It was crazy all the little things he looked at.

Good luck to you! Your lawyer should file your objection to the UST's motion. If the objection is a good one then it may get dismissed before you have to go to court.

[goingcrzy]

So who here has had to go to court? Any insights. Do we just sit there and let the lawyers battle it out or are we questioned for 90 minutes in front of a judge. I am starting to get scared the more I think about.

[StartingOver08]

Look up the posts by jessiegirl. She had a 2004 debtors exam in her BK.

[justbroke]

Oh, I meant the opposite of the McMansion case, where the owners where dismissed because of high secured debt. I can't find any cases after the McMansion case where the debtors were dismissed because of a high payment.

There won't be any. All the other cases set precedence for that particular Circuit or maybe beyond that. There are plenty of cases, on a daily basis, that are dismissed under totality of circumstances and/or abuse under 11 USC 707(b)(3)(B) or 707(b)(3)(A), respectively.

The totality of circumstances always goes to an objective look at the debtor's particular circumstance and whether a discharge under Chapter 7 would be abusive. Trust me, the McMansion case didn't open up the doors and make those parts of the Code disappear. They are even mentioned in the decision.

The UST looked at our case closely and even questioned the fact that I don't work and that we are putting a money in dh's 401K. It was crazy all the little things he looked at.

This is how they nit pick, and before you know it... you have $200 in positive disposable income and poof.. you're in a Chapter 13!

[OhioFiler]

Bkmaggster, I agree it's all about perception. I would add that we all have different communication styles, and while one person puts it politely, another one may be very blatant and downright rude. So I take no offense whatsoever because only I and my close circle know my life circumstances, and no one else does.

You can't "agree" with someone's post then "add" the complete opposite of what you agree with is also true. That would mean you actually disagree with Bkmaggster.

Your sharing of your bk related life circumstances includes those of us who read your posts in your circle.

[OhioFiler]

One man's advice is another man's lecture. It's all perception. If you can take the emotions out of it and mentally filter the information, you may find some great wisdom here. In combined experience, people here have about seen it all.

In the end, as you know, the only opinion that matters is the trustee's.

And for the record, I know everyone on this forum secretly envies my sweet bicycle and my bus pass...LOL

It's no longer a secret! I always wanted a Schwinn!

[banca rotta]

As was mentioned earlier if the two, 40k cars were actually secured loans rather then leases you would have more of an argument against the UST since congress allowed this.

I'm not implying the OP is a fraud or an abuser especially when some cities are very expensive and some careers actually require expensive cars, but if this was me I would have basically dumped the cars and bought two cheaper 12k cars, stopped all payments on all debts except for the house and with such a high income save up the money to negotiate with your creditors like 10to 20 cents on the dollar.

The UST probably feels the same way and wants you in a chapter 13 to do just that.


Good luck