Could you critique my Schedules I & J?

[momofthree]

I have a budget of $500/mo for our family of 5 for all food & all household supplies (incl. diapers/paper products, bathroom supplies, cleaning products, batteries, anything you can think of that we'd need during the month, etc.). My oldest son is allergic to gluten & eggs. My daughter is allergic to dairy. I also tend to be rather health conscious and insist on tons of fresh fruits & veggies. That said, I have to home cook EVERYTHING, and I am a hard-core couponer, but I am proof that it can be done.

[mb10240]

Well, I found something that will definitely increase our "Medical / Dental Expenses" -- turns out my wife's TMJ just got a whole bunch worse in the past few days and she's going to need some prosthetics made (such as a mouth guard).

Sounds awful, but "yay!" lol

[Pandora]

Only $500 for groceries?? Yikes!!! We're a family of 3 and I put down $1,100 on schedule J. Attorney didn't even blink. Our son has severe food allergies and can't eat a lot of "normal" foods, though, so it costs more to buy products that don't contain the ingredients he's allergic to. I figure if Trustee disputes the costs, I can just bring my son into court and provide a demonstration of what happens if he ingests one of the foods he's allergic to. (Just kidding!)

Seriously, though, with grocery prices going up, how on earth do you feed a family on $500 a month???

Its really not that hard - on average we spent about $600 when our daughter was living at home and that was normal, so $500 is pretty standard for a family of 3 I think. We eat pretty darn good filet mignon, NY strips..fish, chicken, etc etc etc. I buy meat in bulk and use our foodsaver to make smaller packages, cooking from scratch saves a ton of money as well. I use coupons where I can but only on items I use often, and buy most items on sale. Now, I mean its nothing to drop $400 on just meat alone, but that will last us quite a few months (about 6 or so) - so we do save up for that by setting aside a bit more out of our grocery money so that we can buy that way. You'd be surprised how much you save - over 50%. Example: Giant just had their Porterhouse steaks on sale for $4.99 a lb (regular $15.99 lb) - each pack had 2-3 steaks in them, about 1.5 inches thick. If you know meat, then you know that a Porterhouse has a NY Strip on one side and a filet mignon on the other . We dont eat a ton of red meat, so - when I purchase it this way, I cut the strip and filet off and freeze them separately. If I was to purchase just NY strip (boneless) it would be $10.99 a lb - and filet $18.99 a lb. Do the math! I think I spent about $100 on Porterhouse steaks - came home, separated them, and ended up with 12 NY strips and 12 Filets - all 1.5 inches thick and all black angus.

Chicken is the same way - I only buy perdue boneless skinless and it cannot have any injected solutions in it - has to be all natural. It goes on sale for $1.49 a lb and I buy around 20 packs of chicken, each having 3-4 breasts in them - cost is around $5.00 per pack on sale. Normal price is around $3.99 per lb.

You can do it if you know where to shop and prices. Foodsaver is great - I love mine and have used it for years now! Then again - our next area is going to be purchasing a cow (either whole or half) and that equals out to about $2.50 a lb for everything, so thats even more savings.


I do want to add to what BTS mentioned - if you're claiming 1100 for food for a family of 3 - yep - you'll have to provide proof that you spend that much every month and probably doctors notes to back up your claims.

[Dee]

You will need a doctor's note for food that is that much over the irs standards. If you are over the median, the US trustee will red flag the expense.

Good to know - I'll have his doctor write a letter. Some of them are life-threatening allergies, not just intolerance. The worst is dairy - all forms. Any idea how hard it is to avoid even trace amounts of milk, cheese, whey, casein, etc? Grocery shopping with me is an all-day outing.

[backtoschool]

If I could include my (non-filing) wife's student loans in Schedule J, that would be be my saving grace and would get our expenses significantly over our current monthly income.

I mean, she's solely liable for them, they would remain in repayment even if I went into Chapter 13 (since she's not filing with me), and the Court can't force her to file for bankruptcy when it's my unsecured debt that's bringing the household down. I don't see why I can use it as a "marital adjustment" in the means test, but can't use it here?

You cannot claim a marital adjustment for the student loans and claim them as an expense. It is one or the other. All expenses must either be claimed as an adjustment to the non filing spouses income , or claimed as an expense, but not both.

[backtoschool]

Only $500 for groceries?? Yikes!!! We're a family of 3 and I put down $1,100 on schedule J. Attorney didn't even blink. Our son has severe food allergies and can't eat a lot of "normal" foods, though, so it costs more to buy products that don't contain the ingredients he's allergic to. I figure if Trustee disputes the costs, I can just bring my son into court and provide a demonstration of what happens if he ingests one of the foods he's allergic to. (Just kidding!)

Seriously, though, with grocery prices going up, how on earth do you feed a family on $500 a month???

You will need a doctor's note for food that is that much over the irs standards. If you are over the median, the US trustee will red flag the expense.

[Dee]

I think $100 for pet care and $125 for entertainment for 2 people is going to be questioned as excessive. We're a family of 3 with 4 pets (cat & 3 chickens) and were allowed $500 groceries, $60 recreation, $40 pets.

Only $500 for groceries?? Yikes!!! We're a family of 3 and I put down $1,100 on schedule J. Attorney didn't even blink. Our son has severe food allergies and can't eat a lot of "normal" foods, though, so it costs more to buy products that don't contain the ingredients he's allergic to. I figure if Trustee disputes the costs, I can just bring my son into court and provide a demonstration of what happens if he ingests one of the foods he's allergic to. (Just kidding!)

Seriously, though, with grocery prices going up, how on earth do you feed a family on $500 a month???

[tobee43]

yes... we get eggs. Chickens are great pets if you get the right breed! Funny as hell to watch and each has their own personality. Quite the characters. No..we dont eat them. We had 6 but I've lost 3 this year. Cant be on a farm without chickens!

ok...now...i know i'm from the country but one of my best friends shows chickens...please don't laugh..it's those beautiful ones with the puffy feathers...they are so pretty.

we had rhode island reds...LOL...because of the brown eggs i use to think they were "buttered" LOL!! when i was little.

eggs...the perfect food...full of protein...low cal...we eat them for dinner!!

cool way to save money really.

[Pandora]

i agree...with pandora....what's up with the chickens do you get eggs??

yes... we get eggs. Chickens are great pets if you get the right breed! Funny as hell to watch and each has their own personality. Quite the characters. No..we dont eat them. We had 6 but I've lost 3 this year. Cant be on a farm without chickens!

[tobee43]

I think $100 for pet care and $125 for entertainment for 2 people is going to be questioned as excessive. We're a family of 3 with 4 pets (cat & 3 chickens) and were allowed $500 groceries, $60 recreation, $40 pets.

i agree...with pandora....what's up with the chickens do you get eggs??

[Pandora]

I think $100 for pet care and $125 for entertainment for 2 people is going to be questioned as excessive. We're a family of 3 with 4 pets (cat & 3 chickens) and were allowed $500 groceries, $60 recreation, $40 pets.

[mb10240]

I've seen numerous posts on here about student loans not being permitted in J... we include them all the time, specifically if you could argue that most of the unsecured debt was incurred attempting to keep up with the student loans.

If I could include my (non-filing) wife's student loans in Schedule J, that would be be my saving grace and would get our expenses significantly over our current monthly income.

I mean, she's solely liable for them, they would remain in repayment even if I went into Chapter 13 (since she's not filing with me), and the Court can't force her to file for bankruptcy when it's my unsecured debt that's bringing the household down. I don't see why I can use it as a "marital adjustment" in the means test, but can't use it here?

[tobee43]

It seems like it's an allowable expense here in the Western District of Missouri based on the few cases I've seen where pet care was used as an expense.

For some background on the animals -- we have 2 cats & 2 dogs. We tend to go through a large bag of both cat & dog food each month. One of the dogs has a heart condition which requires medication and the occasional vet check up.

that is good to know. we don't have any pets anymore.... to heart breaking.. for us when we have lost them. we just can't go through it again.

[tobee43]

Pet care is absolutely permitted in Ohio (at least from what we see). In fact, I attended a training at which our Chapter 13 trustee was a presenter and he indicated that he would certainly be a lot more amenable to a pet expense than say to someone putting cigarettes or anything more than about $50 per month in entertainment in his/her budget. We add in $50 per month unless they have numerous or large pets (horses etc) and then we jack that up a bit.

Also, we commonly add significant school supplies/lunches (use the max in the means test and the actual in J).... kids cost money... I know that all too well having been a foster parent for many, many years myself.

We put in a minimum of $75 per month for home maintenance as well... I always ask the clients about the condition of their homes in fact. If I see that they have unusually high utility bills, I assume they're in need of new windows, a new roof or insulation and we add more (we've actually put in as much as $300 per month on that line and not had it questioned).

I've seen numerous posts on here about student loans not being permitted in J... we include them all the time, specifically if you could argue that most of the unsecured debt was incurred attempting to keep up with the student loans.

well, it certainly is good that some states allow it. frankly, there are many more pets that i prefer than humans...here you could not count a dime toward pet care and for those having pets it was rolled into food cost or some other area that a few dollars could be tucked here and there.

great point about the student loans...personally i think you should blog that...or at least put it up in the student loan forum.

since no one would appreciate my answer with respect to student loans...which is leave the country for 10 years or file bankruptcy in a country that will discharge the usa loans.

although with your present argument i'll love to see the stats on the actual results....would be interesting how much success you have on that one!!

[LaurieM]

and what's the word on "pet" care.....i know here they allow none....the OP lists each at $50 monthly???? can that even be included in ohio?

Pet care is absolutely permitted in Ohio (at least from what we see). In fact, I attended a training at which our Chapter 13 trustee was a presenter and he indicated that he would certainly be a lot more amenable to a pet expense than say to someone putting cigarettes or anything more than about $50 per month in entertainment in his/her budget. We add in $50 per month unless they have numerous or large pets (horses etc) and then we jack that up a bit.

Also, we commonly add significant school supplies/lunches (use the max in the means test and the actual in J).... kids cost money... I know that all too well having been a foster parent for many, many years myself.

We put in a minimum of $75 per month for home maintenance as well... I always ask the clients about the condition of their homes in fact. If I see that they have unusually high utility bills, I assume they're in need of new windows, a new roof or insulation and we add more (we've actually put in as much as $300 per month on that line and not had it questioned).

I've seen numerous posts on here about student loans not being permitted in J... we include them all the time, specifically if you could argue that most of the unsecured debt was incurred attempting to keep up with the student loans.