Can someone review our expenses?

[buster123]

Could someone give my expenses a once over? My wife and I are getting ready to bring all the paperwork to our attorney this week so he can file and I need a sanity check on our expenses…

Family of 5 (2 adults + 3 children and 2 dogs)
Live in NY

Mortgage……………..…….….$3867 (includes taxes but not insurance)
Electricity & Heat………..….$430 (monthly average)
Municipal Water.........…...$28
Telephone Service………..…$15
Home Maintenance………...$75 (gas for mower, repairs…)
Food……………………………….$1100 (includes diapers, cleaning supplies…)
Clothing………………….……….$200 (clothes, footwear…)
Medical Expenses…………...$275 (co-pays, prescriptions, child w/ asthma)
Transportation……………..….$175 (gas & tolls)
Entertainment……………..….$150
Homeowners Insurance……$129
Auto Insurance………………….$189
Umbrella Policy………………….$25
Auto Loan………………………….$469 (primary family vehicle – minivan)
Student Loans…………………..$305
Daycare……………………………$1950 (2 children)
Education for Children…….$25 (books, school supplies, CCD)
Cell Phones…………………….$105 (needed for work)
Internet Service………………$30 (needed for work)
Personal Care…………………$60 (haircuts…)
Cable Television.............$65

Not sure if Cable TV is an allowed expense but with 3 kids... well.. you know

Would appreciate any feedback

Thanks

[newbie2]

A couple of things jumped out at me: Are you giving yourself enough for medical expenses for a family of 5 (and one child with a chronic condition)? Also, the studen loan payment won't be allowed. If subtracting the $305 per month pushes you into DMI range for a Chapter 13 you could have a problem.

[Pandora]

are you sure you qualify for a CH. 7? You obviously are over median, so you'd have to be -DMI to do it and adding up your expenses above, you're almost at 10K a month.

I'd go over everything in the extreme as to your expenses - if the trustee feels you can afford to be in a CH. 13, you need to account for how that will all play out.

[momofthree]

How much dmi does this list allow you? You didn't list your income. The student loans will not be allowed (they go into deferment in a ch.13, so they don't count when figuring out if you could fund a 13). Entertainment might be questioned as high. Home maintenance looks low, as does your transportation expense. Remember to include tag renewals, tune-ups, tires/brakes/etc. in your calculation, not just the monthly expense.

is your daycare an average cost for the area? Seems high to me. How old are your kids? Will either be starting school in the next year or 2?

[scorpion35]

Could someone give my expenses a once over? My wife and I are getting ready to bring all the paperwork to our attorney this week so he can file and I need a sanity check on our expenses…

Family of 5 (2 adults + 3 children and 2 dogs)
Live in NY

Mortgage……………..…….….$3867 (includes taxes but not insurance)
Electricity & Heat………..….$430 (monthly average)
Municipal Water.........…...$28
Telephone Service………..…$15
Home Maintenance………...$75 (gas for mower, repairs…)
Food……………………………….$1100 (includes diapers, cleaning supplies…)
Clothing………………….……….$200 (clothes, footwear…)
Medical Expenses…………...$275 (co-pays, prescriptions, child w/ asthma)
Transportation……………..….$175 (gas & tolls)
Entertainment……………..….$150
Homeowners Insurance……$129
Auto Insurance………………….$189
Umbrella Policy………………….$25
Auto Loan………………………….$469 (primary family vehicle – minivan)
Student Loans…………………..$305
Daycare……………………………$1950 (2 children)
Education for Children…….$25 (books, school supplies, CCD)
Cell Phones…………………….$105 (needed for work)
Internet Service………………$30 (needed for work)
Personal Care…………………$60 (haircuts…)
Cable Television.............$65

Not sure if Cable TV is an allowed expense but with 3 kids... well.. you know

Would appreciate any feedback

Thanks

$305 student loans doesn't count
$1950 for daycare way to high

[buster123]

Thanks for the replys...

Daycare at $1950 per month for 2 children is low for the NY metro area. I'm getting a great deal on that. Most places charge upwards of $1300 - $1500 per child depending on age. I know it is lowere in other areas of the country but I don't think a trustee would even blink at that number and it is completely verifyable. It took us a year to find someone that charges us so little and it's a constant worry that she is going to leave us for more money becuase she could deffinitly get it. 1 child will be going the Kindergarten next year... the other is only 2 so we have 3 more years for 1 of them. My oldest is in school but is only 7 so she watches him when he gets home as well... until my wife and I are done with work for the day.

As far as DMI, I'm deffinitly negative after all expenses. The daycare cost is absolutly what is putting us in the negative range but we really have no choice... my wife and I both work and don't have any family members that can do it for free (they all work as well).

Medical expenses are something that give me a hard time. I know what we spend on prescriptions per month and I could estimate copays and doctor visits but is fluctuates so much, I would have a hard time proving it if it was questioned.

Transportation costs could be a bit higher but I'm trying to be as accurate as possible incase someone askes me to prove anything. That is another one that fluctuates so much, it's hard to estimate. I didn't add oil changes and things like that though so it probably should be a bit higher.

Entertainment... I'm not sure what is allowed here. I tried to include birthdays, holidays, the occasional pizza and other activities that my kids are involved in. That was a complete guess at $30 per month for each of the 5 of us in the house. It seemed reasonable but I really don't knwo if it is or not.

[tcreegan]

Hi buster123,

Same things jumped out for me: student loans not being allowed, daycare will be a red flag so have documentation, transportation and medical a little low; look it over to see if you left something out. Entertainment at 150 could be a problem except it gets rolled into personal care, kids education, for a single entry "personal" Personal care, kids education are low so it will average out. The cable bill should be fine.

Good luck to you on this,

Tom in Colo

[buster123]

What kind of documentation would they be looking for. Other than the fact that I pay $450 a week for the past couple years, what else could I provide? Based on a few internet searches, the average daycare in the NY Metro are seems to be about $1000 per month. Actually my wife and I tried to find a more econmical solution a few months ago but everywhere we checked was at least $1250 per month per shild. Some as high as $1500 per month. I honestly don't know a single person in my city that pays less than we do and everyone always tells us how lucky we are to get daycare so cheap. Maybe we need to move to another area of the county to save on this one

[tcreegan]

Hi buster123,

How about a bill/rept from your daycare person? If you paid w/ checks you can use the cancelled checks (old-school, I know)

Tom in Colo

[ccsjoe]

buster, I doubt anyone will question daycare unless it is exhorbitant. This expense was a big part of what allowed me to qualify for a 7. Nobody questioned me about it or asked for proof of payment, although it was in the bank statements I submitted to the trustee's office. Only thing that I really see a problem with is student loan payments. Maybe rec at $150.

[buster123]

Yeah... I included the student loan payment but I do understand that it isn't allowed. The recreation expense includes everything I could think of, including birthdays and holidays for my kids (3 of them) and things like the newspaper. If it is too high, I can cut it back but I really just want to be able to get by kids modest birthday and Christmas presents. It also includes things like cub scouts for my oldest and little league.

I don't have a bill or receipt for the daycare. It's a woman who comes into my house to watch my 2 youngest during the day and my oldest after school (and the oldest during parts of the summer). We give her a check every 2 weeks for $900. I would have to request the cancelled checks from my bank... they don't automatically send them to me (it's a credit union), but I do have the carbon copies. The only think that has changes is that we started paying her cash this month. We bounced a check in October and kind of put her in a bad spot. She ended up waiting 2 more weeks to get paid. We felt really bad about it and had agreed to start paying her cash so we didn't put her in that bind again. After this week we're going to start paying her each week instead of every other week.

So at the end of the day, I have bank statements that show a $900 check, and carbon copies of the checks, every 2 weeks up until the bounced check in October and then the cash withdrawal for the same amount at the same time every 2 weeks. I would imagine that would be sufficient, wouldn't it? Again, I don't think the trustee would bat an eye at the daycare cost because that is really around the average cost in the NY metro area. I just want to be prepared for any and every question that may come up.

[Pandora]

First question I'd ask your attorney is what amount would qualify you for a Ch. 13 - many have been put into a 13 by the Trustee not allowing certain expenses, finding the minimum necessary for a 13 plan. From what I've seen, the minimum needed to fund a 13 is around $187 or so. Your lawyer can say you qualify for a 7 based on negative DMI, but ultimately its the Trustee who decides.

Does your mortgage payment include a 2nd mortgage at all?

[tobee43]

your "Home Maintenance".......ahhhh take me there...it's a snowy windy ny evening and the big tree in front of your house gets iced up and crashes down on your car and hits your house.... and while most damage may be covered by insurance there may be other items not covered....also while we are at it....since "things" usually happens in "3"s...the water heater just went and the oil burner is backing up....

i'd say...increase you home maintenance....we did $400 monthly...and actually some of the problems we faced thus far..that amount wasn't even enough....

we all know the cost of general house repairs and i just think that is one place you can add...while maybe some of the other questionable deductions can be lowered a bit...

i would also, as pandora, points out, make certain and run this all by your atty if you are concerned about what position or how close the trustee may find you with respect to doing a 13 as opposed to the 7.

[buster123]

Yes, it includes a HELOC (with the same bank and my mortgage). Does that change things? Is the HELOC payment not allowed?

I've been trying to estimate what I have "paid" and what I can prove. For things like home and car maintenance, am I allowed to account for those unexpected repairs?

[tobee43]

Yes, it includes a HELOC (with the same bank and my mortgage). Does that change things? Is the HELOC payment not allowed?

I've been trying to estimate what I have "paid" and what I can prove. For things like home and car maintenance, am I allowed to account for those unexpected repairs?

we did and were and are discharged...i had $400 on our home repair average monthly expenses..no, i was not asked to prove it at from the trustee as it's reasonable to have unforeseen problems come up which one needs to be prepared for...and our atty made certain the amount was within reason. ....so far in this new place we have needed every dime and more. we were encouraged to have a maintenance "savings".