Fees for modifying a schedule & creditor matrix

[footballfan]

Looking for general consensus -- should one expect to pay additional attorney's fees to amend a schedule or creditors matrix pre-341 meeting?

Situation -- information provided on attny's questionnaire about pending lawsuit by JDB. Lawsuit gets listed on the statement of financial affairs, but does not get listed on Schedule F of unsecured creditors nor creditors matrix. Original creditor is listed on Sched F and matrix.

JDB does not receive 341 notificaiton.

Attorney wants to charge additonal hourly fee and court fee for amending the schedule and creditor matrix.

I'm going to ask attny for clarification on whether or not amendment actually needs to occur as JDB was on SOFA. Obviously I'll do and pay whatever I need to pay in order to make this right.

I kick myself for not ensuring this creditor appeared in all the right spots, but also feel since the info was provided to the attny/paralegal in the first place, the legal expert should have made sure accurate information appeared in all the right spots.

I'm willing to accept my part in this. Does the attny's office share in the responsibility?

[footballfan]

Love responding to myself. After reading about the steps one must attend to in order to modify, I think it would be worth it to me to pay my attny to amend.

I feel kind of overwhelmed about it all -- leave it to the expert, no?

[HHM]

It depends, if the fee agreement states that amendments are extra, then yes. If not, it is a bit more vague...but most fee agreements contain a clause regarding work required after filing or after the trustee meeting.

But you are right, it is a pain in the butt to amend.

If you are a no-asset case, there is really no reason to amend to simply add the creditor, just download the notice of BK from PACER, and mail to the JDB directly. (its not official, but it does put them on notice). Then, once the discharge is entered, simply mail that to them. If you are an asset case, then you MUST amend, they must be afforded an opportunity to participate in the distribution and need to be notified through the regular process.

Again, as for paying, your situation kinda falls in the gray area between attorney mistake and your mistake. It is clear you knew about the JDB and the JDB appeared on SOFA. (double check the creditor mailing matrix, see if the JDB is there). The attorney office probably should have caught it, but they are human too.

If the creditor must be added, perhaps offer to split the difference, you pay the hard costs (the court fee, postage), but not the time related fee.

[footballfan]

HHM -- very wise advice indeed.

My attny does recommend we add, but he also suggested faxing the 341 notice immediately to the JDB and civil court, as our pre-conference trial is scheduled for later this week.

In the end, I think it might be easier to amend. But I have told my attny (he's quick at emails, so I'm corresponding with him at the same time I am typing this comment) that I'd like to do the amendment in person with him. We didn't have the opportunity to review our petition in office wiht him, and this will be a chance to touch on everything.

[Drazil65]

Ok, I may be in the minority on this issue BUT if you did not review the petition for errors before filing (if I recall you wanted to get filed by the 31st but ran into some issues?) and the attorney was the only one reviewing the info before filing then the attorney takes full responsibility for that info. If the info was provided and showed up in one place but not in another then I believe the attorney should amend at no charge, right?

I would bring this up with attorney I think. Good Luck!

[despritfreya]

Drazil is on the right path. The point of fact is that if the attny (or paralegal who typed the docs) saw that there was a creditor listed on the SOFA, then he or she should have made sure the creditor was also listed on Schedule F. I do this all the time. Client lists the law suit and then I say, "ok, why did you not list this creditor here?" The response is usually, "I listed it but did not know it had to go in two places". It is my job to catch the obvious mistakes. Now, if the JDB had not been listed at all. . .

As to doing an actual amendment, the court charges a $30 fee. The actual typing, filing and noticing out of the amendment along with the 341 Notice takes me about a half hour - assuming only one creditor. The more creditors the longer it takes. Cost to client (if we get around to billing it. . . but we usually collect the court fee before doing the amendment) $175.00.

Des.

[footballfan]

I agree with where you are going with this. Personally I feel these are the kinds of things the attny is getting paid to recognize -- if I knew all the answers and had the expertise, I'd probably be pro se (kudos to those who actually manage this on their own).

The JDB and civil suit had been fully disclosed when we retained attny, and in fact he suggested wording for our summons answer we filed to buy more time. My feeling is it's on him and the paralegal he chose to generate our petition to make sure all the information we provided was placed in the proper places/schedules.

I've proposed emailing my changes and then meeting with him in person to review. I will probably bring up my thoughts on this whole issue in person.....I haven't had much luck with my emails being interpreted in the kind respectful manner I had always intended.....

I'll let you all know how it goes......does he do it for filing fee alone, does he discount his hourly rate, or do we pay for it all? to be continued

[filed]

Drazil is on the right path. The point of fact is that if the attny (or paralegal who typed the docs) saw that there was a creditor listed on the SOFA, then he or she should have made sure the creditor was also listed on Schedule F. I do this all the time. Client lists the law suit and then I say, "ok, why did you not list this creditor here?" The response is usually, "I listed it but did not know it had to go in two places". It is my job to catch the obvious mistakes. Now, if the JDB had not been listed at all. . .

As to doing an actual amendment, the court charges a $30 fee. The actual typing, filing and noticing out of the amendment along with the 341 Notice takes me about a half hour - assuming only one creditor. The more creditors the longer it takes. Cost to client (if we get around to billing it. . . but we usually collect the court fee before doing the amendment) $175.00.

Des.

Des,

This is pretty much my circumstance as well. I had a pre petition judgement and gave a copy of it to my attorney. He listed the judgement in my SOFA #4, but, never put the creditor on the schedule F or on the mailing matrix.

I have not been declared an asset case or a no asset case as of yet, and it has been about 40 days since my 341 was concluded. IF my case is, in fact, a no asset case, then, is this not a big deal, and not in need of an amendment - or, do I need to be more aggressive in getting an appointment with my attorney to discuss this and insist on an actual amendment?

Thanks!

[filed]

If you are a no-asset case, there is really no reason to amend to simply add the creditor, just download the notice of BK from PACER, and mail to the JDB directly. (its not official, but it does put them on notice). Then, once the discharge is entered, simply mail that to them. If you are an asset case, then you MUST amend, they must be afforded an opportunity to participate in the distribution and need to be notified through the regular process.

HHM, this situation is very similar to mine, my judgement was listed properly in SOFA #4, but, creditor was not listed in schedule F, nor included on the mailing matrix.

Furthermore, I filed as a no asset case, but, there has been no determination by the Panel Trustee to this effect, ie, there has been no statement of no asset/no distribution filed. It is my understanding that the Panel Trustee may wait as long as they like, even after the discharge date to determine asset or no asset. How do I know if the Panel trustee is going to declare me an asset case before the discharge date, in which case I must amend? Or, how do I know if they are going to make me a No Asset/No Distribution before the discharge date, in which case, I do not need to amend, right?

[despritfreya]

I have not been declared an asset case or a no asset case as of yet, and it has been about 40 days since my 341 was concluded. IF my case is, in fact, a no asset case, then, is this not a big deal, and not in need of an amendment - or, do I need to be more aggressive in getting an appointment with my attorney to discuss this and insist on an actual amendment?

I am of the firm belief that if the case has not been closed the amendment should be done. One never knows when a "no asset" case can become and "asset" case. We have one poster today that is talking about an inheritance due to the unfortunate passing of her FIL. This happened after the Discharge and maybe after the closing. From what I remember, the case has now been reopened. If that had been you, you would now be scrambling to make sure all creditors were listed. Err on the side of caution. Amend.

Again, if I had missed the creditor then there would be no cost to the client. That is the way the Firm operates. I can't speak to how anyone else would handle the matter.

Des.

[filed]

I am of the firm belief that if the case has not been closed the amendment should be done. One never knows when a "no asset" case can become and "asset" case. We have one poster today that is talking about an inheritance due to the unfortunate passing of her FIL. This happened after the Discharge and maybe after the closing. From what I remember, the case has now been reopened. If that had been you, you would now be scrambling to make sure all creditors were listed. Err on the side of caution. Amend.

Again, if I had missed the creditor then there would be no cost to the client. That is the way the Firm operates. I can't speak to how anyone else would handle the matter.

Des.

Des and HHM, and anyone with knowledge,

I am a little worried. to refresh, I have a pre-petition judgement, and it is properly listed in SOFA #4, but, creditor is nowhere listed anywhere else in the petition (sched F or mailing matrix). I spoke to an assistant in my attorney's office just now. They told me not to worry, that when it is a lawsuit or judgement the creditor is not supposed to be listed in schedule F, nor are they supposed to be listed in the mailing matrix, but, that they are sent something different, called a notice of bankruptcy, and have therefore been properly noticed and the debt will be appropriately discharged. Can this be correct, or do I have a problem with my case as well as with my attorney?

[filed]

Excuse me, a suggestion of bankruptcy, or something like that is what they are sent (apparently)

[tobee43]

filed i'm really sorry you are going through such pain over this matter.

since i have been there and done that, i can only say it worked out. i know you can't belive that as true, but it did. after the discharge we vacated the judgement. however, as des has pointed out, amend the filing and add it to your sch f if you feel that's the correct way to handle it.

if you are filing according to your states petition the process may vary, so where one state has it in a certain section another it may be somewhere else in the body of the petition. i have never heard of a suggestion of bankrutpcy, but i'm certain des or hhm may be more familar with such a document. i do know and understand the importance of the notification to the creditors whether it be a suit or just a small unpaid bill with the local plumber, proper notificaton is vital. (although, i have even heard on the forum if you don't list it, it's fine because it was just assumed it's included, that doesn't fly well with me). i want to make certain they get proper notice.