Moral Dis-equivalency between debtor and creditor

[HHM]

I am often struck by the moral dis-equivalency we provide between debtor and creditor. Debtors often feel extreme guilt and depression over filing BK out of some moral idea of "keeping a promise". But why shouldn't we hold creditors to the same high moral standards? Why not "help thy neighbor?"

Deuteronomy 15, 1-11 provides and interesting commentary.

1 At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. 2 This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD's time for canceling debts has been proclaimed. 3 You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your brother owes you. 4 However, there should be no poor among you, for in the land the LORD your God is giving you to possess as your inheritance, he will richly bless you, 5 if only you fully obey the LORD your God and are careful to follow all these commands I am giving you today. 6 For the LORD your God will bless you as he has promised, and you will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. You will rule over many nations but none will rule over you.
7 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. 9 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the LORD against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10 Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11 There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land.

Legal issues aside, should we not expect and demand a higher moral standing from creditors? I understand the difficulty of legislating affirmative moral duties, its much easier to prohibit than to prescribe. For example, "Thou Shall Not Break A Promise" is clear, concise and universal in application; but "help thy nieghbor" is not concise in what action in prescribes. Nevertheless, I think we have lost something by allowing creditors moral dis-equivalency to debtors.

[PoorGrammyinBK7]

Thats really interesting. I agree.

[justbroke]

I have lived by those words (although I never recall reading them). However, I have been known to forgive all debt on Christmas each year.

Unfortunately, I don't know if I've forgiven it. I have a spreadsheet which keeps track of what people owe me, and what I've "forgiven". The total forgiven to date is $43,393.98

I guess the spreadsheet is to remind me who the "credit risk" people are. ;)

[fltoo]

With any topic, you can find a case for both sides in the Bible. You can find verse that tells you to never have debt, to always pay your debt, to forgive your neighbor's debt.

Frankly, I don't see how the Bible has any bearing on the subject of debt. There are religious and non religious people who take the responsibility for the debt they incurred. There are others who blame the banks, mortgage brokers, and government for their debt.

What do morals have to do with it? Are you immoral if you don't pay your debt or just at the end of your rope?

Are you immoral if you blame others for your debt, or are you just in denial?

Are you moral if you struggle to pay your debt and not provide food and shelter for your family?

I just don't get this topic.

[fltoo]

I have lived by those words (although I never recall reading them). However, I have been known to forgive all debt on Christmas each year.

Unfortunately, I don't know if I've forgiven it. I have a spreadsheet which keeps track of what people owe me, and what I've "forgiven". The total forgiven to date is $43,393.98

I guess the spreadsheet is to remind me who the "credit risk" people are. ;)

I agree with you. You keep track of what is owed and you felt the need to tell people here how much is owed, so did you really forgive the debt?

[albacore44]

Wonder what it says in the Koran ?? probably something like all debtors should be decapitated in the public square.

[fltoo]

Nevertheless, I think we have lost something by allowing creditors moral dis-equivalency to debtors.
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HHM
I don't know who "we" is and I don't know what is allowed and I have no idea what dis-equivalency means, but I can sure agree that someone "lost" something.

[HHM]

This is not a post about the "bible" per se, so your anti religious sentiments are misplaced. I simply used the bible as a historical example of the moral duties once ascribed to creditors. Dis-equivalancy has to do with the fact that the alleged stigma is associated with debtors, not creditors. We seem to accept that creditors should not help those in need...or at least, there is not a general outcry against it.

The issue has to do with the emotional response many persons have toward BK. Most, not all, but most people seem to have some guilt associated with BK. As I have mentioned in other posts, the emotional response to BK is similar to the grief cycle, Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. Most debtors, at some point, feel some level of guilt for having to file...guilt is an emotional response to violating some principal...after all, guilt is about feeling remorse for something you did which you think is wrong. As the debtor reaches acceptance, the guilt dissipates, but how many on this forum have said things like
"I have always been a person who pays my bills"
"I am not poor, how can I be here"
"I can't file BK, it's not who I am" etc.

My point, or I should say, my observation, is why should we not apply certain moral principals to creditors. When and why, as a society, did we decide or accept that creditors have no blameworthiness if they do not put themselves in the shoes of the debtor or take actions to help those in need.

[justbroke]

I agree with you. You keep track of what is owed and you felt the need to tell people here how much is owed, so did you really forgive the debt?

I think it's prudent of me to keep a list of those who I have given $43K+ over the years, on the expectation that they'd pay me back.

I never rub it in their face. I never remind them of the debt.

I use the spreadsheet so if they were to ask, I can quickly check to see if the new debt will be paid back... or am I just giving them money. I must admit, when someone borrows money from me, I pretty much expect to not get it back.

I don't know if that makes me a bad person or not, but it's the reality. I would never use my spreadsheet to tell my brother he borrowed $9K in 1996 and was supposed to pay back $150/week, and never did. However, I'd be careful if he asked to borrow anything over $1K in the future.

[LuciluS]

HHM
I Agree!

2nd or 3rd Quarter of last, when CCCs' raised the minimum monthly payment 2%, raised the % of interest over 2% & lowered the limits on CCs, they shot themselves in the foot...so to speak.

After leaving the Attorney we chose late last September, I came home & cried for days. The paperwork he gave us for Chapter 7 has been quite overwhelming. When listing our Assets, using Garage Sale prices, it was disheartening to me. I've felt like a was a 'failure' in my community, church and especially with my husband who had no clue we were in financial trouble as I pay the bills. Bless his heart, he is a Truck Driver and is gone, most of the time 6 out of the 7 days. I am disabled & unable to do the grocery shopping. So he has to do it on his day off.

Private Medical & especially Dental Insurance & Medicare have not kept up with the medical costs. Hubby had around the world back surgery 11/03, Stents placed 10/05, 5 bypass surgery 2/07, Pacemaker installed 6/07, Cellulitis 4 times where they stripped the vein and I've had 5 surgeries from 5/05 - 11/07 and have a Spinal Cord Stimulator Implanted. Just the Spinal Cord Stimulator was charged out as $79,000 with a 1 year warranty! Due to DOT regulations hubby was off work 7 1/2 months in 2007. Our prescription costs for 2008 was over $4,000 and what I paid in Medical Bills was right around $12,000. Then there is Medicare A & B $96.40 a month and I have a Supplemental Policy to cover prescriptions which is $48 a month. Praise The Lord, hubby's company pays his insurance.

I can remember when a couple could have 2 insurance companies and between the 2, all medical bills were paid. We didn't have Co-Pays to Doctors and especially didn't have a different copay depending upon if it was a GP or a Specialty Doctor. Dental Insurance usually payed around 70% if you had 'out of the ordinary dental work completed'.

In February, I just paid $4,664 for dental work due to the medication I have to take, it is causing my teeth to disintegrate. Dentist is trying to keep my 'chewers'. I've already had a back tooth chip right in half. His goal is to pull all 4 back teeth, save the 'chewers' and will have upper & lower front implants.

We were going to file Feb. 2009; however, I found out I had Skin Cancer on my left breast. Due to this wonderful Forum, I have put off our Bankruptcy until at least Sept. I had the Breast Biopsy - $250 Co-Pay (Praise God, they didn't ask for the $250, because we didn't have it at the time). I'm having surgery by a Dermatologist, Monday - $250 Co-Pay and have an appt. that afternoon with a Plastic Surgeon for Reconstructive Surgery - $250 Co-Pay.

Credit Card Companies 'Made Their Own Bed' by raising our limits, sending us checks to cash for a better rate in the Good Times. Now, this past Fall they 'shot themselves in the foot' by raising minimum amounts by 2%, raising % of finance charges between 4 - 18% & then lowering the limit amount.

As I am disabled and only drive when I have doctor appts. or to the local bank, and am home by myself, usually 6 of the 7 days, I had been 'Consumed' with this Bankruptcy...so much to the point I couldn't sleep and I take a sleeping pill, Depressed and put on Anti-Ds for a month (then find out they could cause seizures when mixed with my Morphine and Ultram).

This past Sunday was my 55th birthday and I got to see my 3 precious grandchildren, my Son and my Daughter-In-Law. DIL needed to get some things off of her chest, so I listened to her for over an hour and found had they had gone through Bankruptcy of which neither me nor my ex-husband knew about.

After they left, it was just me and my little Shih-Tzu. It was time to speak to God and that's what I did. It was just like an Intervention occurred. I no longer feel Guilty, Immoral, Sorry for Myself or Depressed about this whole Bankruptcy ordeal. I know Now, I've done the best I could do under or circumstances. I did ask God to try to help me from letting my frail 89 yr. old father (be 90 in Dec.) find out about our Bankruptcy as he is a worry wart, in poor health and just doesn't need anything else on his plate right now.

As it has been said on this wonderful Forum, Bankruptcy is a business decision that must be made. It doesn't bother me to have to check the box 'have you filed Bankruptcy?' BUT it infuriates me to find out our auto and homeowners insurance will increase after Bankruptcy.

I utilized my Senators & Congressmen/women while attempting to get Disability and I intend to utilize them when our insurance goes up. In these bad times, it's NOT a Good Business Decision to allow insurance companies to raise our rates.

Whew, I even fill Better. Maybe I can go catch some ZZZs

Luci

[dingdong]

I agree HHM.

I was talking with a friend, who was recently rate jacked because of information found on his CR.

He hadn't paid the debt late to this particular card, but was late on another.


Did the CC company HAVE to rate jack him?

NO!

They could choose to leave the rate the same. Hell, they could choose to lower his rate to 0 after seeing he was having trouble paying his bills.

Was he immoral for paying late on the one card?

But screwing over a paying customer, just because somewhere in some fine print it says you can, that's moral?

Now he has no itention of paying any of it back. He's going to pay the others that haven't rate jacked him (yet).

There is no way he can now make a dent in the debt at 29%.

He has had his income decreased by almost half and was still paying on the cards, just not enough and not fast enough to satisfy the greedy monsters.

[Flamingo]

My point, or I should say, my observation, is why should we not apply certain moral principals to creditors. When and why, as a society, did we decide or accept that creditors have no blameworthiness if they do not put themselves in the shoes of the debtor or take actions to help those in need.

One point or spin on this is that just as a driver controls the speeding vehicle that gets into the accident (the car didn't do it itself), the debtor utilizes the credit card to get himself/herself in trouble (the credit card didn't go to the store by itself). There are two sides to the coin on this one and while I agree with HHM's posting, a credit card is a responsibility and can be carelessly used by some who then blame the creditor for putting it into their hands.

[fltoo]

When and why, as a society, did we decide or accept that creditors have no blameworthiness if they do not put themselves in the shoes of the debtor or take actions to help those in need.
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Because they are not to blame! No one forced me to use my home equity line to support a failing business. Co pay? LOL I have a 10,000 deductible on my self pay health insurance policy. Dental insurance? What is that?

If you want to really find immorality........ask people who have run up thousands of dollars on credit cards and have 6-900. dollar car payments, how much money they donated or "gave away" to the poor in the last year.

I guarantee they will tell you that they cannot "afford" charity. You want a cc company to help his fellow man? Man does not even help his fellow man (enough) in our society.

HHM, maybe you can fit in "blame others" somewhere on your list of emotions and responses dealing with BK.

[ease]

Wonder what it says in the Koran ?? probably something like all debtors should be decapitated in the public square.

Not OK.

[HHM]

When and why, as a society, did we decide or accept that creditors have no blameworthiness if they do not put themselves in the shoes of the debtor or take actions to help those in need.
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Because they are not to blame! No one forced me to use my home equity line to support a failing business. Co pay? LOL I have a 10,000 deductible on my self pay health insurance policy. Dental insurance? What is that?

If you want to really find immorality........ask people who have run up thousands of dollars on credit cards and have 6-900. dollar car payments, how much money they donated or "gave away" to the poor in the last year.

I guarantee they will tell you that they cannot "afford" charity. You want a cc company to help his fellow man? Man does not even help his fellow man (enough) in our society.

HHM, maybe you can fit in "blame others" somewhere on your list of emotions and responses dealing with BK.

I think you are missing the point; or in an effort to keep my posts somewhat short, I am bypassing explaining certain things.

I am NOT saying creditors are to blame in a factual or causal sense. This is not a "blame the creditor rant" They didn't cause the debtor to use the cards. When I speak of moral blameworthiness in this thread, it is related to the idea that after the debtor was in trouble, creditors take no or little action to help (and more often than not, make the situation worse). Why should we allow that, why in this modern age did we suddenly accept that certain players in society are not bound to basic moral principles like, help those in need. Also, your post is based on the false assumption that somehow it was unreasonable for debtors to charge up their creditors (granted, a minority of debtors make bad decision), but for a realtor making $500,000 a year, carrying a $50,000 CC balance is not that big a problem....UNTIL the real estate market tanks and they are now only making $70K a year. But at the time, that $50K CC balance was a low risk.

The interesting thing to note is that this moral dis-equivalency is a recent phenomenon. Even going back to the turn of the century, people would often buy items from their local market on credit (the creditors was the store). If the buyer hit a rough patch (bad year for crops), the store would still extend credit or otherwise "help" the person out until they got back on their feet.