How will Obama v. Democrats v. Republican Battle Play Out?

[chrisdfw]

I am pretty hopeful. I am an optimist. I feel that once we get to the cliff and hit the brakes the folks that are dependent on the government services such as the recipients of the public pensions, the free healthcare crowd, the bailout crowd and the rest of the bunch that depends on the bankrupt government will fly right off the cliff while the rest of us will take our time and build a strong bridge to the future.

We will have a lot of hard work but it will be done. As for the rest of you that want your big govt giveaways I say happy landings!

I don't think they will give up their giveaways, not until they have voted to use the force of government to take everything from those that have more. They have gotten pretty close in the past. 55% estate taxes, income tax rates up to 90%. There are many who would vote to kill the rich to take what they have. They already want to financially rape the rich to pay for their food stamps, section 8, tanf, etc.

The mentality of many is that they don't care what they have to do, they will kill to take what you or I may have.

I think it may get rather nasty when the harsh financial reality sets in that we can't afford to keep supporting the massive entitlements that many depend on. We can't afford to finance 30 years of medical care and social security for people who can still contribute. We can't afford to continue to encourage immorality and sloth. It may get ugly indeed. Within 20 years at our current course the interest on the debt will consume the entire federal budget. What then? 80% tax rates, no more goodies, both?

I worry about our country, too many people depend on the government to take money from others to support them.

[banca rotta]

So you must be an optimist... I am not that hopeful.. I rather think we may go off the cliff.

I am pretty hopeful. I am an optimist. I feel that once we get to the cliff and hit the brakes the folks that are dependent on the government services such as the recipients of the public pensions, the free healthcare crowd, the bailout crowd and the rest of the bunch that depends on the bankrupt government will fly right off the cliff while the rest of us will take our time and build a strong bridge to the future.

We will have a lot of hard work but it will be done. As for the rest of you that want your big govt giveaways I say happy landings!

[helpme2010]

LOL!!! first I HATE TV....but i do have another half that LOVES to listen all day....i personally prefer silence.......do NOT SAY a word....but i do...

i read tons....and each writer has it's own interruption of what is being said. additionally, even IF you read the bill, each person sees it say a different meaning using the same words....(i understand that well working in a field that law was twisted to service whom it was that could afford the best verbal twister of the law to meet whatever criteria needed at that moment).

and ok....MOST all your posts are great...LOL!!!! at the VERY least they do invoke SOME (of course excluded ME), to think and react...it's mostly a good thing...mostly...

I would love to read this bill. I have read many of the previous ones related to UE. I was a little lazy and didn't research to find it (and probably would just cry after reading it).

As for tobee saying you don't like tv, I love tv (I was raised by a tv). ahahahahah

I also watch a lot of tv, because the more they talk about this on tv, the more the politicians will listen and take action, as many watch the cable news channels and take action from those commentators. The commentators represent the people (something congress is supposed to do but doesn't always do). Angry screaming commentators demanding 99er help will represent the voice of millions and can help our cause.

[tobee43]

It is not confusing or unclear at all. Why don't you just turn OFF the television and radio, and try reading about the bill? Why do you think the TV talking heads understand what they are talking about? They are not attorneys or lawmakers or economists - they are more like circus performers. The details of the Obama/Republican agreement were clearly stated from the start. They never changed. All you had to do is to READ about the details from a reputable source.

And BTW, all of my posts are "great".

LOL!!! first I HATE TV....but i do have another half that LOVES to listen all day....i personally prefer silence.......do NOT SAY a word....but i do...

i read tons....and each writer has it's own interruption of what is being said. additionally, even IF you read the bill, each person sees it say a different meaning using the same words....(i understand that well working in a field that law was twisted to service whom it was that could afford the best verbal twister of the law to meet whatever criteria needed at that moment).

and ok....MOST all your posts are great...LOL!!!! at the VERY least they do invoke SOME (of course excluded ME), to think and react...it's mostly a good thing...mostly...

[chrisdfw]

I think we are going to travel much further down the steep road leading to the cliff before we finally hit the brakes and realize the brakes will only slow us down but we will be heading off the cliff regardless. We will eventually throw an anchor that stops us from completely dying at the bottom, so we will be hanging most of the way off the cliff and will have one hell of a nasty and slow climb to get back to the top of the cliff again (many years from now).

So you must be an optimist... I am not that hopeful.. I rather think we may go off the cliff.

[chrisdfw]

You are referring to the southern and plain states right?

all states, if NY wants to become a haven for people who make bad choices, then let them try it. If MN doesn't want to , let them try.

Many many states are crippled by medicaid costs because the federal government forces them to spend money that they may otherwise choose not to. I think here in Texas we could keep out lights on just fine, we exported power to california when they couldn't keep their lights on. We still have manufacturing here too. But that is not the point.

I don't really care that welfare is a pittance or cheaper than prison time, because prisons would be pretty cheap if we didn't have do gooders crying over the prisoners treatment. How about some tents in the desert and some hard physical labor. People might not go back. Trust me, I can run a prison for far less, high fences, cheap food, no air conditioning, and hard labor. AT some point criminals get the quick death penalty, or society arms themselves and when you break in you get shot.

Welfare is only cheaper than prison in our current screwed up system where we think it is kind to prolong poverty and punish success.

The southern and plain states... you mean the ones with low crime, low unemployment, that produce the food that most of the country consumes. The ones forces to pay the medical bills for illegals because the federal government won't enforce the border... yes those.

So specifically what is bloated
Social security
medicare
defense (except for our own border)
department of education
department of the interior
Pretty much all of them... there is no reason for a federal department of education, every state already has one.
Same for the interior, we have similar departments in the states.
Defense is too high, because we refuse to fight wars properly. Kill people and get it over with. That is how to end
a war. But we spend a lot of our money defending other countries which they need to pay for or do themselves.
All welfare... no need for this at a federal level... pretty much all states have departments that handle the same functions.

[jacko]

Its really interesting that everybody really focuses on the source of the money and who should be taxed, but we never really consider why we have to pay for such a bloated federal government. Do I have an obligation to pay for your medical care? Should I have to bear the costs of feeding another child for a welfare case? You tell me where it ends.

Can you be specific which parts of the federal gov't is bloated? The system is set up were the ones with health insurance and the ones who can pay cash for care will always subsidized the ones who do not have the means. Hospitals could not stay open if they could not cost shift.

The government has no business acting like robin hood. I should not have to pay for other people's personal choices. The fact is in this country if you do just a few simple things you can reduce your chances of ending up in poverty by 99%.
1. Don't be a criminal, it ruins your job opportunities.
2. Don't do drugs, they cause lots of problems, and see #1
3. Don't have children with people you are not married to.
4. If you get married, stay married.

Easy for you to say. Life's not perfect.

If you do these things you reduce your chances of being in poverty by 99%. If everyone did these things, I bet the people who ended up poor due to injury, illness, or misfortune could be taken care of by charity. But since people make bad choices, our government feels the need to subsidize those people by stealing money from other productive people.

Oh puleaze.


The federal government has a few legitimate functions, coining money, defending us (even our borders). If it stuck to those things we wouldn't have to talk about all these taxes. The states can handle other functions as they see fit. Let california be a welfare state, let texas have free markets, let massachusetts have gay marriage, let new york be a section 8 ghetto. See which states prosper and then the other states can decide to adopt those policies. We really need to shift government back to the states so we can see some innovation in government. When one state makes a mistake, it doesn't have to be repeated in 49 others.

If it weren't for Calif, NY, NJ, MN, CT tax payers, much of the southern and plain states could not keep their lights on.

Texas doesn't have much to show since they raced to the bottom on taxes and regulation.


I hate seeing money taken out of my pocket so that I have to support others who are not working. No society can survive on the back of the productive few supporting many who are unproductive. There is no reason social security recipients can't contribute. they know things and have value, they need not be relegated to leaches on the backs of society. Welfare cases can work, and should work, I need someone to scrub my floors, but unfortunately they don't have to scrub my floors to get my money, all they need to do is demand that the government take the money from me and give to them... and my floors are still dirty. When the government takes my money and gives it to welfare cases and section 8 housing recipients I get nothing in return. Those people should have to do work in order to earn their benefits, that way I can get something for my money. Everyone ends up better off.... you know what we call that... work. Jobs. If people didn't have the opportunity to steal from me, they would have to get jobs.

Nobody is stealing from you. But your asking your gov't for financial relief from your creditors if and when you have filed for BK.

When they had jobs they would pay taxes and we would all be better off.

I am morally against taxing the rich if we use it for redistribution. Especially to wealthy bankers as has been the custom under Bush and Obama. We have too much taxes in this country not too little. We need to reduce spending, and we need to start with social security, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, section 8, welfare (if you are on these programs I don't blame you, its the voters that vote to steal from me to provide these things that I blame, the recipients are just acting rationally to the incentives we give)

I support in letting the tax cuts expired to reduce the deficit. Should of not happen in the first place.

Social Security surpluses have been financing the defense budget for decades. Where would you make that up?

Welfare is pittance when it comes to gov't spending. Its a safety net. With out it, people will do desperate things like stealing in order to survive which will result in jail time at up to $30,000 per year. Welfare is cheap compared to prison time. Ask how Calif three strikes have worked out for them? Prisons account for 10% of Calif state budget. And people were criticizing midnight basketball.


From there we can get rid of federal control over education, school lunches, healthcare, etc and return the power to the laboratories of innovation known as the states. Let the competition determine the winners. Those who invest in productivity will prosper, those who steal and invest in welfare will end up broke, as all welfare states are inevitably doomed to be.

You are referring to the southern and plain states right?

[helpme2010]

I agree about the thieves stealing from the thieves stealing from the thieves. Your Adam Smith line makes me think about everything I studied about the invisible hand and how the invisible hand is supposed to make capitalism work, yet it only partly makes things work and that is also where government is supposed to stand in where needed and that often doesn't work. I can appreciate all angles of arguments here. I also was really pissed when the courts allowed the recent unlimited contributions to government officials by corporations as I saw this open our country up to becoming the United Corporations of America.

I think we are going to travel much further down the steep road leading to the cliff before we finally hit the brakes and realize the brakes will only slow us down but we will be heading off the cliff regardless. We will eventually throw an anchor that stops us from completely dying at the bottom, so we will be hanging most of the way off the cliff and will have one hell of a nasty and slow climb to get back to the top of the cliff again (many years from now).

[chrisdfw]

I think one problem is how many writeoffs corporate executives and business owners make. For example, I know many CEO's and business owners that buy thousands of dollars of alcohol for themselves and write it off to the company, take personal vacations and write it off, and a host of other loop holes that end up taking money away from paying down the deficit. So I think there needs to be some fairness on both sides, both the rich and poor.

Business expenses are deductible, which decreases the taxes paid, but isn't nearly so egregious as the flat out handouts our government gives to businesses.
Look at how much money has just been handed out to businesses in this last "economic crisis". Make no mistake, when I see the title "Obama vs democrats vs republicans" what I see is thieves vs other theives versus even more theives. They all are in the pocket of big business. Who really benefits from the oppresive taxes and regulations? Those who are already rich and companies that already made it, because it stifles their competition with regulations they can't possibly afford to comply with.
Who suffers? The rest of us who aren't rich and companies that are small.

I don't believe we give people tools to get back on their feet, mostly we give them just enough to keep them from being motivated to work. I don't care if those on welfare are in poverty, they should be, as a matter of fact, I believe we treat them too generously, but it isn't me that suffers the most, sure they steal a lot of my money, but it is the poor who suffer the most. We think we are helping, but we are just enablers.

As long as we have a welfare system and rampant immorality we will see a decline continue. The stigma of having children without being married is gone. The stigma of being a leech on the back of society is gone. We are rapidly sinking to the lowest common denominator.

Adam smith believed capitalism and morality had to go together. We can't have a successful economy without morality.

[helpme2010]

chris, I think you have a lot valid points here. I also think that someone who does take a really low paying job, could perhaps collect a smaller size unemployment check to help out (perhaps that would motivate people that you are referring to not to turn down low paying jobs, because they would come out better than not taking the job at all and it would also save the tax payers some money for these types of people).

I think one problem is how many writeoffs corporate executives and business owners make. For example, I know many CEO's and business owners that buy thousands of dollars of alcohol for themselves and write it off to the company, take personal vacations and write it off, and a host of other loop holes that end up taking money away from paying down the deficit. So I think there needs to be some fairness on both sides, both the rich and poor.

I understand the wealthy pay the majority of the revenue for the government, yet they are also in a position not to worry about survival and if they will end up homeless or not, compared with those living in absolute poverty. Those in poverty should be given tools to help them get back on their feet in a realistic way, especially during a recession. Believe me, those in poverty want to be making bank again so they can live a better life and contribute to the economy.

[chrisdfw]

crisdfw, there are two types to discuss, welfare and the unemployed who are collecting on the unemployment insurance that they have paid into the system.

Sorry, my point is about the taxes issue. Unemployment causes some of the same problems, but my point is we wouldn't have such a big tax debate if the government wasn't involved in so many things.

Unemployment should also be a state run program. If california offers 99 weeks and nevada offers 200 weeks, that is their business, the federal government really shouldn't get involved.

Unemployment does cause some of the same issues, because if causes people to turn down work they would otherwise take. I understand the benefits, and even used it myself, I am not against anyone who is unemployed or on unemployment, just think we need to consider how we structure it. The fact is that some people turn down work because it is less than their unemployment benefits (who wouldn't, that is rational behavior). I think that we all need to take more responsibility for ourselves and consider making unemployment insurance subject to a little longer waiting period and a decrease in benefits over time. But it should be on a state by state basis.

I don't believe that without welfare we will have a massive class on the street and homeless. I believe they will find productive things to do with their lives. The people on welfare have things to contribute and value, sometimes the welfare system may even convince them that they do not and they are victims, but I do not believe it. They have ideas and labor to contribute, but we pay them not to.

I'd be willing to hire people to do some hard labor, but it is hard for me to find anyone willing because of the welfare system. If they had to do it to feed their families, I bet they would, but we have created a system where it is better not to work. Collecting food stamps, section 8, welfare, WIC, medicaid may be preferable to scrubbing floors for minimum wage, but scrubbing floors is better than starving. The problem is we should not offerthe choice of welfare over starving. We should offer work over starving.

I have fences that need staining, floors that need scrubbing, painting, all sorts of work that I would be willing to pay minimum wage to get done, but nobody wants to do that, it means giving up their welfare. At least if they did the work I would get something for my money. by distributing through government there is a dead weight loss, I get nothing and they get the money. With work I get something and they get something.

That is why redistribution through government is wrong, it offers nothing in return for the person giving up the money. Society ends up worse off because we lose the productivity of people who would otherwise contribute.

The same goes for social security. There are lots of things that the elderly can contribute, but we push them aside and give them a government check. Throughout society we devalue people's contributions when we give them money for nothing. We tell people they don't have anything to contribute so we have to give them a handout. I don't believe it. I believe almost everybody can contribute.

[helpme2010]

crisdfw, there are two types to discuss, welfare and the unemployed who are collecting on the unemployment insurance that they have paid into the system. e.g. I have paid over 20 years out of my paycheck every week into the unemployment insurance fund. So now that the economy has tanked and there are few jobs available, those that are unemployed are using the system that they have paid into (quite different from welfare).

I could see your point about not taxing the rich more if you were the same on giving money to the unemployed and welfare people. But you can't give one without the other. Remember, the unemployed will eventually be on the payroll again, providing taxes and helping society (but if you turn them away and throw them on the streets, you will create a massive class of millions of homeless that will end up costing our society much more than if you help them during their time of trying to find a job). I don't know anyone that is on unemployment that wants to be on unemployment. They want a fricken job so they can live a better life, like they did before, period.

[chrisdfw]

Its really interesting that everybody really focuses on the source of the money and who should be taxed, but we never really consider why we have to pay for such a bloated federal government. Do I have an obligation to pay for your medical care? Should I have to bear the costs of feeding another child for a welfare case? You tell me where it ends.

The government has no business acting like robin hood. I should not have to pay for other people's personal choices. The fact is in this country if you do just a few simple things you can reduce your chances of ending up in poverty by 99%.
1. Don't be a criminal, it ruins your job opportunities.
2. Don't do drugs, they cause lots of problems, and see #1
3. Don't have children with people you are not married to.
4. If you get married, stay married.
If you do these things you reduce your chances of being in poverty by 99%. If everyone did these things, I bet the people who ended up poor due to injury, illness, or misfortune could be taken care of by charity. But since people make bad choices, our government feels the need to subsidize those people by stealing money from other productive people.

The federal government has a few legitimate functions, coining money, defending us (even our borders). If it stuck to those things we wouldn't have to talk about all these taxes. The states can handle other functions as they see fit. Let california be a welfare state, let texas have free markets, let massachusetts have gay marriage, let new york be a section 8 ghetto. See which states prosper and then the other states can decide to adopt those policies. We really need to shift government back to the states so we can see some innovation in government. When one state makes a mistake, it doesn't have to be repeated in 49 others.

I hate seeing money taken out of my pocket so that I have to support others who are not working. No society can survive on the back of the productive few supporting many who are unproductive. There is no reason social security recipients can't contribute. they know things and have value, they need not be relegated to leaches on the backs of society. Welfare cases can work, and should work, I need someone to scrub my floors, but unfortunately they don't have to scrub my floors to get my money, all they need to do is demand that the government take the money from me and give to them... and my floors are still dirty. When the government takes my money and gives it to welfare cases and section 8 housing recipients I get nothing in return. Those people should have to do work in order to earn their benefits, that way I can get something for my money. Everyone ends up better off.... you know what we call that... work. Jobs. If people didn't have the opportunity to steal from me, they would have to get jobs.

When they had jobs they would pay taxes and we would all be better off.

I am morally against taxing the rich if we use it for redistribution. Especially to wealthy bankers as has been the custom under Bush and Obama. We have too much taxes in this country not too little. We need to reduce spending, and we need to start with social security, medicare, medicaid, food stamps, section 8, welfare (if you are on these programs I don't blame you, its the voters that vote to steal from me to provide these things that I blame, the recipients are just acting rationally to the incentives we give)

From there we can get rid of federal control over education, school lunches, healthcare, etc and return the power to the laboratories of innovation known as the states. Let the competition determine the winners. Those who invest in productivity will prosper, those who steal and invest in welfare will end up broke, as all welfare states are inevitably doomed to be.

[WhatMoney]

it seems to me the 99ers will get some more time according to what was just said...but it's so confusing and unclear.

this is FEDERAL monies and NOT state....so i don't know if it's going to be only in states with higher than national averages...ahhhhhhhhhh

It is not confusing or unclear at all. Why don't you just turn OFF the television and radio, and try reading about the bill? Why do you think the TV talking heads understand what they are talking about? They are not attorneys or lawmakers or economists - they are more like circus performers. The details of the Obama/Republican agreement were clearly stated from the start. They never changed. All you had to do is to READ about the details from a reputable source.

And BTW, all of my posts are "great".

[tobee43]

well....take a look at the posting i put up...it came directly from the fed site...

the president just extended it 13 more weeks....or did he???

it seems to me the 99ers will get some more time according to what was just said...but it's so confusing and unclear.

this is FEDERAL monies and NOT state....so i don't know if it's going to be only in states with higher than national averages...ahhhhhhhhhh