Health Insurance Discussion

[TooMuchCredit]

One needs to only define "waste" in socialism to understand how it will work.

Waste is anyone who is no longer able to contribute to the benefit of the society as a whole.

AKA Death panels. Britain is the most "socialized" of the other systems with the government owning hospitals and employing doctors. They do not have death panels. They do not have a $30K per year limit on care. They do have a 30K ceiling before treatment is reviewed to see if there is a cheaper alternative. We have that sort of thing today in the insurance companies - if they didn't, they would not be able to make a profit.

I had wondered if we had any model for a system requiring private insurance. I had forgotten about Massachusetts. Massachusetts has mandated insurance and the free market there hasn't worked. And that's without requiring them to remove yearly/lifetime coverage caps, pre-existing conditions, adding portability, and out of pocket caps which surely will make premiums go up as it's new risk.

[IBroke]

Obama said: "The REFORMS I'm proposing would not apply for those who are here illegally."

What you just explained only shows the stupidity of this entire topic: If you want to obtain insurance RIGHT NOW, do they check if you are here legally? No? So what's the deal? If this is a problem for Republicans, why didn't they fix it? I don't want to be required to show my passport at every visit to the doctor just to make sure such an illegal can't PURCHASE (which, btw, means, he's going to PAY for it) insurance.

How about asking for a passport when buying stamps at the post-office? Could be an illegal, right? That's just plain stupid!

Fact is: No MONEY will be spent to cover illegals - and THAT'S all that matters to me.

[TooMuchCredit]

This is the confusing part. On the other hands, some senate dems are saying that they are paying for "part" of it through shifting Medicare/Medicaid money around. Yet, they are not touching Medicare/Medicaid. Which is it? I don't know how they are going to get rid of that much Waste. They've already been trying for years.

From what I read, the savings comes from eliminating the Medicare Advantage plans that are offered through private insurers. Those plans offer the exact same Medicare benefits plus a few added perks, but they cost Medicare 14% more than if the patient had care directly though medicare. So if they eliminate those plans patients would still have the exact same medicare benefits they did before but there would be savings gained because unnecessary additional money would not be going to the private insurers.

[TooMuchCredit]

Obama said: "The REFORMS I'm proposing would not apply for those who are here illegally."

What you just explained only shows the stupidity of this entire topic: If you want to obtain insurance RIGHT NOW, do they check if you are here legally? No? So what's the deal? If this is a problem for Republicans, why didn't they fix it? I don't want to be required to show my passport at every visit to the doctor just to make sure such an illegal can't PURCHASE (which, btw, means, he's going to PAY for it) insurance.

How about asking for a passport when buying stamps at the post-office? Could be an illegal, right? That's just plain stupid!

Fact is: No MONEY will be spent to cover illegals - and THAT'S all that matters to me.

I think too it's a misconception that illegals don't pay taxes. They pay sales, property (through ownership or rent), and many pay income taxes. They're just scapegoats.

And you're right, we don't want to have to show proof of citizenship to the EMT's when you re in a car wreck.

[JRScott]

Maybe if we were not paying for the defense of the rest of the free world it would help? Our military strength is not just for our nation alone. Perhaps it is time other nations chip in on a stronger military if they want to use it? That would help some. Rolling back the tax cuts from Bush would help, I can afford to give up my 30.00 savings. And if we have healthcare thru a single payer like medicare, I would be willing to pay for it, why not... I pay now and still have to pay at the hospital door big bucks. The problem is greed, and it is way beyond the little guy making 500,000.00 per year... this is real greed.

The government is doing a better job with highways, library's, bridges, healthcare, pensions and ss than the corporate brains in America are doing for their own employees unless your one of the chosen few at the top. Big corporate America is what just took us down due to their greed. And they want to blame it on goverment? Really??? It was governments fault for de-regulating them and letting them be so crooked? Shouldn't they simply be honest to begin with so we don't have to pay for all the jails, and attorney's to protect the consumers? If they are doing just a bang up job in the private sector how come so many are being sued over fraud and corrpution? Without government you have no rules, no laws and I can stop by and steal all your posessions when your to old to frend for yourself.

Maybe people are like the guy I met in GA who is against all the hand outs, except for the one that was giving him a break for his sick child? People like all the things that help them, but feel like everyone else should stand on their own?

The Federal Governments pension plans are just as unfunded as most of corporate Americas.

It was not the greed of big corporations that led us down this path alone, it was the greed of every American who has not lived within his means these past 20 years.

It is far time we pulled out of many nations of the world. We simply cannot police the world, nor is it prudent for us to do so. We cannot bring democracy to the world, especially when we really aren't a democracy. To have freedom people must earn it. It's much like someone who is hungry. You could give him a fish to eat the day or teach him how to fish so he eats for life.

The military budget though is relatively small when you look at future projections and outlays for Social Security, Interest on the National Debt, Medicare and Medicaid. All 4 of those within a decade will eclipse the military budget. Politicians aren't willing to make the hard choices to fix those 4 which are the greatest danger to our national wellfare. Instead they want to add yet even another Government run program that they can't really afford.

Every state in the union that has so far tried Statewide insurance has ultimately faced near bankruptcy and had to peel back the health care or discontinue it entirely. Mass. is headed that way now. Fundamentally a national or state program isn't what is needed. What is needed is more options in opening up cross state competition. Also tort reform is needed such that without it there really would be no point to any other health care reform.

I don't want a federal program that 4-5 years down the road has to be discontinued or severely curtailed because the government can no longer afford it, because that would hurt the poor and seniors more. About half of the uninsured could afford their own insurance if they just didn't have that extra car payment or boat payment. For them it is a lifestyle choice, so why should I have to pay for health care they themselves aren't willing to do.

As for the poor many more qualify for existing Medicaid but do not apply for whatever reason. Perhaps rather than a new health care program we should run some sort of sign up drive to get all those qualified onto the roles and see then how many are not insured.

Giving individuals a tax break for having insurance seems the cheapest and most effective way I think to do it. Just make the premiums completely deductible from taxes. Lot less red tape and thus a lot less expensive that way.

[JRScott]

Obama said: "The REFORMS I'm proposing would not apply for those who are here illegally."

What you just explained only shows the stupidity of this entire topic: If you want to obtain insurance RIGHT NOW, do they check if you are here legally? No? So what's the deal? If this is a problem for Republicans, why didn't they fix it? I don't want to be required to show my passport at every visit to the doctor just to make sure such an illegal can't PURCHASE (which, btw, means, he's going to PAY for it) insurance.

How about asking for a passport when buying stamps at the post-office? Could be an illegal, right? That's just plain stupid!

Fact is: No MONEY will be spent to cover illegals - and THAT'S all that matters to me.

Actually Rep Wilson was correct. None of the bills out of committee would prevent illegal aliens from getting coverage. One bill had said that they could not but then the CBO warned that there was no enforcement measure in that bill either such that it was likely that it would occur.

Sen. Baucus and his group worked to close that loophole in their bill which is still in committee after Rep. Wilson's comment.

[justbroke]

Fact is: No MONEY will be spent to cover illegals - and THAT'S all that matters to me.

Hence is why the comment Bachaus made about anyone can purchase insurance, makes sense. However, the question was turned on "will illegals receive the benefit of these Government programs". If they purchase the insurance, yes, they would receive the benefit. But, if they purchase it, they are spending money for it.

[IBroke]

Hence is why the comment Bachaus made about anyone can purchase insurance, makes sense. However, the question was turned on "will illegals receive the benefit of these Government programs". If they purchase the insurance, yes, they would receive the benefit. But, if they purchase it, they are spending money for it.

This is a perfect example why so many people are frustrated. Another discussion about an issue of the HP that is totally irrelevant but still used for politicial tactics. For God's sake, this country should discuss the MAIN aspects of this HP and not this nonsense.

The most important question should be the funding. A HP that is set-up correctly should actually benefit from a higher number of insured individuals.

[justbroke]

IBroke, it's the ugliness of politics. In my business, we tell the client that they don't want us to see us making the sausage. It's not a pretty process. Hopefully, what comes out in the end, is a great product.

Unfortunately, I don't think politics works the same way. They are making sausage, and it still doesn't come out good in the end.

[IBroke]

Actually Rep Wilson was correct. None of the bills out of committee would prevent illegal aliens from getting coverage. One bill had said that they could not but then the CBO warned that there was no enforcement measure in that bill either such that it was likely that it would occur.

Well, after Obama said: "The REFORMS I'm proposing would not apply for those who are here illegally" and taking into consideration that section 246 clearly pointed out at least the intention to exclude illegals from the HP, I don't think it's appropriate to accuse the President of lying. He didn't say: "Under the reforms I'm proposing, it's IMPOSSIBLE for illegal aliens to obtain insurance."

There's a difference between "prevent" and "apply". For Rep Wilson's accusation, this difference is crucial. Before I'm accusing the President of lying - in front of Congress - I have to be VERY careful. If the final bill would include that specific section, it wouldn't be the intention under the HP to cover illegals - in fact, the BILL doesn't apply to illegals. The enforcement is another question - I agree. But that doesn't mean Obama is a liar.

And as I said, even IF they could obtain insurance but would have to pay for it just like anybody else, what's the big deal? Is this a "deal-breaker"? Do I have to shout out load in front of Congress and act like a monkey? For what?

BTW, illegals also purchase food in this country, so next time I go to a fast-food restaurant, I rather take my passport.

[JRScott]

There is no enforcement in the bill of that section which means it would never be enforced. There is no requirement to show ID, prove citizenship etc. It was only after Rep Wilson said You Lie did Sen Baucus panel close the loophole.

Also you are quoting one passage which has no enforcement from one bill. None of the other bills out of committee have that passage or any enforcement. So ultimately since only 1/4 of the bills have it what makes you think it would be in the final bill.

Rep. Wilson should not have interrupted the President, but at the same time what he said was true. The problem is the President has no idea what he's peddling, he has yet to read the bills which is largely why he's ineffective in selling it.

If we'd just close the border you know 8 years after 9/11 it remains very porous, then it would be a non issue as there would be no illegal aliens. It is the strain of illegal aliens that has led to California's budget crisis. It's also why we need to move away from income taxes which are avoided by many illegals and move towards a consumption tax.

[TooMuchCredit]

It is the strain of illegal aliens that has led to California's budget crisis. It's also why we need to move away from income taxes which are avoided by many illegals and move towards a consumption tax.

Illegals did not cause the crisis in CA.

http://dist22.casen.govoffice.com/index.asp?Type=B_PR&SEC=%7B0A2790CD-E2A0-4AD1-ADCC-79E9FBBF6544%7D&DE=%7BA6300478-5E2B-458D-88A5-D72C2DBE9E6D%7D

It's easy to make a group of people scapegoats. Illegals don't get things for free, they pay taxes too - sales, property (renters pay it too via their landlord), and I have seen mention that 2/3 actually pay income taxes. If you have a job, you automatically have fed/state/FICA/Medicare taxes withheld. You have to remember too that most of these people aren't in high paying jobs so their contribution in income tax even if all were paying would be low.

[JRScott]

Illegals do not pay the same share of taxes as you and I do, and it is that shortfall in tax revenue that has in a large part caused CA crisis. Their schools are overrun, their emergency rooms, their health care system in general. While the shortfall caused by illegals avoiding certain state taxes might not completely bring CA back to the black it is clear currently it is a major contributing factor to the state being in the red.

[OhioFiler]

I find it bemusing that we can carry on a discussion about ILLEGAL aliens and never address the concept of removing them. It's as though we've accepted them ans the law means nothing.

Here's my plan for health care for illegals. If they are sick, treat them in a prison hospital.

[hereforinfo]

It's easy to make a group of people scapegoats. Illegals don't get things for free, they pay taxes too - sales, property (renters pay it too via their landlord), and I have seen mention that 2/3 actually pay income taxes. If you have a job, you automatically have fed/state/FICA/Medicare taxes withheld. You have to remember too that most of these people aren't in high paying jobs so their contribution in income tax even if all were paying would be low.

If 2/3 pay income taxes, they're doing it through identity theft. On top of that, they are in the lowest tax bracket and after standard deductions, EIC, child credits, etc. they end up paying ZERO federal income tax and actually get a refund just like any low income worker. That means our tax dollars are actually paying them. The fact that they pay sales tax to the state they live in means nothing to me in another state, as their minimal contribution wouldn't even cover the local services they receive, let alone any of the burden they place on our federal tax system.