Creditor showed up!

[tobee43]

Florida is not harsh to debtors! Florida actually has one of the BEST exemptions... if you own your home! This is why the exemptions for other assets were miniscule / non-existence. It's also the reason why most rich people / athletes have homesteads in Florida. The unlimited homestead exemption is perfect if you own your home outright. Whether it's $300,000 or $30,000,000 you just can't lose your homestead to creditors / bankruptcy.

Now, the real problem in Florida is not the system but that the Trustees realize (or realized) that many debtors were fudging the numbers on the claim of exemption for personal property on Schedule B. Florida would only give a $1,000 wildcard exemption for everything other than your car (which was another $1,000). The $4,000 statutory exemption came about that allowed someone that wasn't claiming (or benefiting from) that unlimited homestead exemption, to get another $4,000 wildcard. Prior to last year, in 2011, it was established caselaw that even if you didn't "claim" the homestead exemption, merely keeping your home in a Chapter 7 (or 13) would render the homestead exemption "used". The debtor didn't get the $4,000 wildcard (unused homestead exemption). The Trustees very quickly realized that these debtors with 3,000 square foot homes were claiming they only had $1,000 worth of furniture, tools, clothing, electronics in that large home. This is why the Trustees sent a third party appraiser to the homes to see if there was actually "only" $1,000 worth of property there.

Blame this on the debtors that consistently fudged the numbers; not the system. I am in a District where they routinely (> 90% of the cases) send an appraiser to the home. They did not send one to my home in either my Chapter 13 or Chapter 7 case. I was above board and listed "large" items individually (such as my 2 flat screen TVs). Nothing to hide.

Now a creditor showing up at a 341 Meeting is generally routine. It is very common to find a Credit Union or small local bank show up at 341 Meetings whether you're in Poughkeepsie or Miami. Another common creditor to show up are estranged family members who have grudges; the worst creditor you even want to show up!

I would say that the majority of Floridians that complain about the Trustee conducting an appraisal had something in their schedules that warranted closer inspection. That's just my opinion of following case outcomes the last 3.5 years across the Florida districts.

On the other hand, California is VERY generous... unless you own a $30,000,000 home!

jb, just wanted to add one thing about the florida $4000 wildcard exemption you have pointed out, for each Florida resident who does not receive the benefit of a homestead.

we had our choice when we moved to florida to go federal or wait the two years. since, on top of the state versus federal law options, you must also pay attention to the residency requirements. the 2005 revisions to the bankruptcy laws created new residency requirements for debtors. congress wanted to discourage people from moving to states with more liberal exemptions and then filing for bankruptcy. you must, therefore, have lived in a state for two years before you can use that state’s exemptions. if we had lived there for less than 2 years, we would have had to had count back 2 years from the date we filed for bankruptcy and then look at where we had lived for the 180 days (6 months) before that. whichever state you have lived in for the longest time during that 6-month period is the state whose exemptions you can use. some states, though, don’t allow you to use their exemptions unless you currently live in that state. and if you get caught in this gap, you’ll have to use the federal exemptions. that's why we personally had to literally go "underground" for two full years, to establish legal residency in the state.

new jersey is where we came from and they don't even have a homestead exemption it's ....actually theirs reads as :None, but survivorship interest of a spouse in property held as tenancy by the entirety is exempt from creditors of a single spouse. so of course we would have had to use federal exemption had be filed there. florida was much better in their allowance and at the least we had no problem keeping our car.

i also think that the trustees here in florida are doing exactly as jb describes becoming firmer and turning many cases into "asset" cases, mainly because they are. although, i have heard a few whopping stories...example just recently where a trustee made someone sell a trailer here on the forum and the first 5800 was exempt. the trailer sold for 6600 and the auctioneer wanted 2k!! that didn't work out to well for the trustee's percentage, so that example was a bit over board with the trustee going after an asset that really wasn't there. just a comment tho, the trustee had the trailer appraised from the thread and it was suppose to have appraised at 12k, however, only went for 6600k at the auction.

also, i do believe trustee's are beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel, or better said, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is becoming empty so they are hitting hard as i'm certain many trustees made a nice amount the past few years on many people's assets.

[despritfreya]

No, it's not a load up by any means. We purchased the laptop and camera 3 years ago, the gps over 2 years ago, the iPod about a year and a half ago and the iPad is a 1st gen purchased in march of last year. We were paying on the account up until august and I made several extra payments on the card over the past couple of years, too.

Based upon this I would agree. . . not sure what B&A was expecting to accomplish. You might want to call their bluff. Tell them to come and get the stuff. You will probably never hear from them to make those arrangements. But, just in case you do, be prepared to give the items to them.

Des.

[justbroke]

Florida is not harsh to debtors! Florida actually has one of the BEST exemptions... if you own your home! This is why the exemptions for other assets were miniscule / non-existence. It's also the reason why most rich people / athletes have homesteads in Florida. The unlimited homestead exemption is perfect if you own your home outright. Whether it's $300,000 or $30,000,000 you just can't lose your homestead to creditors / bankruptcy.

Now, the real problem in Florida is not the system but that the Trustees realize (or realized) that many debtors were fudging the numbers on the claim of exemption for personal property on Schedule B. Florida would only give a $1,000 wildcard exemption for everything other than your car (which was another $1,000). The $4,000 statutory exemption came about that allowed someone that wasn't claiming (or benefiting from) that unlimited homestead exemption, to get another $4,000 wildcard. Prior to last year, in 2011, it was established caselaw that even if you didn't "claim" the homestead exemption, merely keeping your home in a Chapter 7 (or 13) would render the homestead exemption "used". The debtor didn't get the $4,000 wildcard (unused homestead exemption). The Trustees very quickly realized that these debtors with 3,000 square foot homes were claiming they only had $1,000 worth of furniture, tools, clothing, electronics in that large home. This is why the Trustees sent a third party appraiser to the homes to see if there was actually "only" $1,000 worth of property there.

Blame this on the debtors that consistently fudged the numbers; not the system. I am in a District where they routinely (> 90% of the cases) send an appraiser to the home. They did not send one to my home in either my Chapter 13 or Chapter 7 case. I was above board and listed "large" items individually (such as my 2 flat screen TVs). Nothing to hide.

Now a creditor showing up at a 341 Meeting is generally routine. It is very common to find a Credit Union or small local bank show up at 341 Meetings whether you're in Poughkeepsie or Miami. Another common creditor to show up are estranged family members who have grudges; the worst creditor you even want to show up!

I would say that the majority of Floridians that complain about the Trustee conducting an appraisal had something in their schedules that warranted closer inspection. That's just my opinion of following case outcomes the last 3.5 years across the Florida districts.

On the other hand, California is VERY generous... unless you own a $30,000,000 home!

[jst4f]

I was just very shaken that they showed up because everything that I have read says that is very rare.yes, we are in middle district Florida.

Now it makes sense. I don't get FL but it seems to be pretty harsh to debtors compared to the rest of country, at least as reported on this forum. Given the age of the purchases, I'd call their bluff if they don't take your first offer. The iTunes can be uploaded and you'll get and iPAD 2.

[mountanddo]

and I have a lot of purchased music on my iPod,

Your purchased music is in itunes so just erase it and load itunes back up when you get a new one.

[Looloocat]

No, it's not a load up by any means. We purchased the laptop and camera 3 years ago, the gps over 2 years ago, the iPod about a year and a half ago and the iPad is a 1st gen purchased in march of last year. We were paying on the account up until august and I made several extra payments on the card over the past couple of years, too. The only reason that I would like to negotiate to keep the iPad and iPod is because I have to have the iPad for work, so I would end up buying another one anyway, and I have a lot of purchased music on my iPod, but if I have to turn it back in, that's fine.

I was just very shaken that they showed up because everything that I have read says that is very rare.yes, we are in middle district Florida.

[justbroke]

My guess is that you did a "load up" on the Best Buy account within a relatively short time before you filed bk. If so, and with all due respect to the other posters, Best Buy/HSBC is well within its rights to demand payment or the return of its property. Now, if you purchased those items say 2 years ago, then B&A is making a big deal over nothing but still within its rights to protect its client's interests. So, the real questions is, "when did you purchase the items"?

I wholeheartedly agree. If the poster wants the collateral, then they will need to make an offer. If B&A doesn't accept the offer, then just surrender the collateral to them.

I say "don't go out of you way", as in actually packaging it up and heading down to the local Best Buy to effectuate a surrender. The code says nothing about what a debtor actually has to do other than making it "available" for the creditor to repossess the collateral.

I also wonder when the purchases were made. Since the poster wrote "iPad" and not "iPad 2", I figured that this iPad was at least 1 year old and maybe older.

I'm just shocked that B&A showed up at a 341 Meeting. They could have done the same thing by just sending a letter to the debtor's attorney. So, this now has me guessing, as Des has pointed out, that it may in fact be an "eve of bankruptcy" purchase or purchases and Best Buy is likely to recover some of their losses. Still strange.

[mountanddo]

Well isn't is really like when you have cable and you cancel it and have to return the box. It isn't like if you don't return they just say "whatever" they bill you for it. If you agree to surrender it and you don't return it I'm sure they could just continue to bill you for it. It's a bit different if you yourself just say to come get it but if you agree in court to to return I think you'd better.

[tobee43]

So basically you purchased 3 computers, a GPS and a camera at Best Buy.

When did you purchase these items? How much money did you put down, if anything? What was the full purchase price? How much did you pay on the account before you filed bk?

B&A rarely shows up at a 341. My guess is that you did a "load up" on the Best Buy account within a relatively short time before you filed bk. If so, and with all due respect to the other posters, Best Buy/HSBC is well within its rights to demand payment or the return of its property. Now, if you purchased those items say 2 years ago, then B&A is making a big deal over nothing but still within its rights to protect its client's interests. So, the real questions is, "when did you purchase the items"?

Des.

very astute, as i was really wondering why they actually would make a physically appearance at the hearing. especially, in light of what it cost best buy to have the atty there. although, even if all the items were a "load up", it's still going to be difficult for best buy to prove actual intend with the fraud. but, they certainly can try, stranger things have certainly happened.

[despritfreya]

She asked about our iPad, iPod touch, gps, laptop, and camera. . .

So basically you purchased 3 computers, a GPS and a camera at Best Buy.

When did you purchase these items? How much money did you put down, if anything? What was the full purchase price? How much did you pay on the account before you filed bk?

B&A rarely shows up at a 341. My guess is that you did a "load up" on the Best Buy account within a relatively short time before you filed bk. If so, and with all due respect to the other posters, Best Buy/HSBC is well within its rights to demand payment or the return of its property. Now, if you purchased those items say 2 years ago, then B&A is making a big deal over nothing but still within its rights to protect its client's interests. So, the real questions is, "when did you purchase the items"?

Des.

[Exployer1234]

Personally I would give them back their stuff. You can get an iPod really cheap right now and get another iPad or something similar for a lot less. You can get a first gen iPad for a really good deal right now. I say if they want their things back that bad then fine. Make them come to your house to get them.

[jst4f]

Not sure what Best Buy is trying to prove. I agree with JB, low ball an offer, 5% to 10% of outstanding equity, and if they don't accept the offer let them come and get it. While you can't actively hinder their efforts to collect the items, you don't have to do anything to help them collect. BTW: This wouldn't be the middle district of FL being aggressive again following the lead of the trustees? Just curious.

[katztoo]

Our attorney listed Best Buy as a secured creditor since we still owed $607 on a washer bought there. They are being paid in full through our 13 so that can keep our washer.

[justbroke]

I believe this is the first time Bass & Associates has shown up at a 341 Meeting. How ridiculous it must be to try to recover a GPS, laptop and an iPod/iPad? It probably cost Best Buy at least $250-500 for B&A to show up at the meeting!

I think your attorney is spot on. I'd actually offer no more than $200. Make them actually come and get the stuff. You don't have to bring it to them or otherwise go out of your way to effectuate the surrender. They will likely take the $200 and run with it. I might be willing to go to $250... the cost of their attorney.

Pure silliness.

[tobee43]

We are going to offer $200, will go up to $300, if they won't accept that, then I'll surrender the ipod & ipad with the other stuff & buy new. The only reason I'm
trying to negotiate to keep the ipad is because I use it in my small business.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

sounds like a good plan. can't you back up the ipad's system and transfer it to another computer if you have to? i'm not an ipad person, so i'm not really familar.