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My complicated chapter 13 plan is actually not so complicated

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    My complicated chapter 13 plan is actually not so complicated

    Here is why: I propose to pay back creditors 100% except for one. So I don't expect but one objection to the plan. So then it is only one adversarial proceeding and the back and forth there.

    I got all my cases that I'm copying set up on Courtlistener so I can follow the flow of how adversary proceedings work their way through and how things should look on schedules.

    One of the first motions I'm going to file is a motion to file electronically. I do not know why but the M.D. Georgia lets anyone who has a case sign up for a client code so that they can use the CM/ECF system. But not N.D. nope. If they decline, I'll appeal that in a heart beat. That is not equal access to the courts under law, that is flat out discrimination!

    #2
    That is real cool that a district finally allows a Pro Se to use CM/ECF. I went painfully down that road, motioned for reconsideration after denial, and then "thought" about an appeal. Ultimately I didn't want to tick off my judge, so I stopped complaining that lawyers had all the advantages, including bringing cell phones, laptop and iPads into the courthouse and I could not. I mean, why have all that paper moving around?

    Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
    Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
    Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

    I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

    Comment


    • womanonfire
      womanonfire commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree. Did you research your judge? I didn't know until today that they are appointed by other judges from the U.S. Court of Appeals. I'm a reduce your carbon footprint kind of gal. Not only that, having to take off work to file these things could make my plan fail then whose fault is it lol? I'm not afraid to challenge the judge but I know that is has to be done very respectfully. I think some of them might respect you more for standing up for yourself. maybe you'll remind them of the fire that they had when they were new to litigation back in the day and when they had their own cause to be passion about. I think that I will add that in my preliminary statement. If I can't still hug a tree when I'm in bankruptcy court, what do you leave me with? Don't take away a tree huggers tree, well that is just mean lol. I'm reading a pro se RESPA case under the Judge that will handle my case now. He is the only Judge in the small division of my district. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...ap-05169-0.pdf
      Last edited by womanonfire; 03-07-2020, 03:53 PM.

    #3
    I researched my judge and she is firm but also pretty nice overall. Truly a judge that understands the job and is fair with the debtor when she can. For example, she's not quick to take a Trustee's move to dismiss especially where the debtor is a Pro Se. I've watched her continue a dismissal hearing because the debtor wasn't there, or give them more time to come into compliance. But I've also watched her tell a Pro Se "you shouldn't have said that in front of me... that has a consequence" when a debtor accidentally mentioned they had "other" property that was not on the petition!

    Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
    Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
    Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

    I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

    Comment


      #4
      I’m just going to lay this opinion out there.

      I think pro se bankruptcy involving real estate or chapter 13 is a real bad idea for 99% of folks. Pro se is great for simple 7s and stalling (or sometimes winning) debt collection lawsuits.

      How can you afford to pay 100% if you cannot afford to pay a retainer during the time you’re not making mortgage payments? Part of 13 is you and your lawyer coming up with a confirmable plan and it has to be feasible. You can copy the schedule J and means test from a successful debtor, but you won’t see what hoops they jumped to convince the trustee to allow that number. Just because I know folks who wrote down $900+ in medical on J and the means test doesn’t mean you’ll be entitled to anything more than the IRS $65 minimum. You won’t see any hints on how to pull it off on pacer and you know the trustee won’t give you hints either.

      Comment


        #5
        flashoflight I (mostly) strongly discourage anyone from filing a Chapter 13 on their own. The typical debtor that knows that they want to file a Chapter 13 has property and other issues. Those issues usually include arrears and general issues with inability to make payments.

        Having wrote that, my attorney had a fool for a client.
        Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
        Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
        Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

        I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

        Comment


          #6
          Originally posted by flashoflight View Post
          I’m just going to lay this opinion out there.

          I think pro se bankruptcy involving real estate or chapter 13 is a real bad idea for 99% of folks. Pro se is great for simple 7s and stalling (or sometimes winning) debt collection lawsuits.

          How can you afford to pay 100% if you cannot afford to pay a retainer during the time you’re not making mortgage payments? Part of 13 is you and your lawyer coming up with a confirmable plan and it has to be feasible. You can copy the schedule J and means test from a successful debtor, but you won’t see what hoops they jumped to convince the trustee to allow that number. Just because I know folks who wrote down $900+ in medical on J and the means test doesn’t mean you’ll be entitled to anything more than the IRS $65 minimum. You won’t see any hints on how to pull it off on pacer and you know the trustee won’t give you hints either.
          You realize that part of my post was in jest right?

          One should be entitled their actual expenses spent on that particular category backing it up with proof that they actually spent that much over the last 6 months. Using QuickBooks or Quicken helps a lot. Payroll checks should be broken down so that you can quickly pull a report to get the figures. Receipts should be split and saved to back up those expenses. When you show up with this, attach it to your plan, what’s not to love?

          It’s good to pull lots of cases from pacer, review the docket just for objections to get to know the Trustee.

          I’m working on a Google sheet that will give one calculations on what their plan payment should be based on actuals and one based on the IRS guides. I’m testing it based on plans I’ve pulled from chapter 13 cases in my district to see how accurate it is. Once I’ve got my spreadsheet accurately calculating plan payments, I’ll share it.

          Comment


            #7
            Originally posted by womanonfire View Post
            I’m working on a Google sheet that will give one calculations on what their plan payment should be based on actuals and one based on the IRS guides. I’m testing it based on plans I’ve pulled from chapter 13 cases in my district to see how accurate it is. Once I’ve got my spreadsheet accurately calculating plan payments, I’ll share it.
            I did something similar but got hold of the actual spreadsheet used by the United States Trustee and the appointed Trustees. It's known as the UST Comparative Analysis spreadsheet. I once did replicate it and post it here. I did exactly what they do. Compare what you put down, to what they allow on the forms. It was an eye opener.

            The reason I didn't end up going further was because a.) the values change every 6 months, and b.) the values change based on whether they are national, regional, state or county-based IRS standards. Then layer on the "local" standards per District.

            (It was in my old blog... https://www.bkforum.com/blogs/justbr...el-spreadsheet, but the links have expired.)

            It's a lot of work and I only did this because I was Pro Se and wanted to be able to play with the numbers easily (rather than in Best Case Bankruptcy). To tell you the truth, you're better off downloading the Demo version of Best Case Bankruptcy. This is the program that most bankruptcy attorneys use and every single Trustee that I have (or known) have used. It will save you a TON of time. The programs will not allow you to print or file anything as you must buy a license. There are some forms it will print, but will smack DEMO all over the forms. In some cases you can save the forms (at least in the past) but the forms will be PDF with DEMO plastered everywhere.
            Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
            Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
            Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

            I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

            Comment


              #8
              Originally posted by justbroke View Post
              I did something similar but got hold of the actual spreadsheet used by the United States Trustee and the appointed Trustees. It's known as the UST Comparative Analysis spreadsheet. I once did replicate it and post it here. I did exactly what they do. Compare what you put down, to what they allow on the forms. It was an eye opener.

              The reason I didn't end up going further was because a.) the values change every 6 months, and b.) the values change based on whether they are national, regional, state or county-based IRS standards. Then layer on the "local" standards per District.

              (It was in my old blog... https://www.bkforum.com/blogs/justbr...el-spreadsheet, but the links have expired.)

              It's a lot of work and I only did this because I was Pro Se and wanted to be able to play with the numbers easily (rather than in Best Case Bankruptcy). To tell you the truth, you're better off downloading the Demo version of Best Case Bankruptcy. This is the program that most bankruptcy attorneys use and every single Trustee that I have (or known) have used. It will save you a TON of time. The programs will not allow you to print or file anything as you must buy a license. There are some forms it will print, but will smack DEMO all over the forms. In some cases you can save the forms (at least in the past) but the forms will be PDF with DEMO plastered everywhere.
              I did not know that demo existed thank you so much! You don't have the excel spreadsheet do you? I would love to see it. You should be able to upload it to sheets.

              Here is another tool that is useful. https://tryascend.com/qualify/bankruptcy/ch13/precise.

              Comment


                #9
                I'll have to dig it up. It's on a backup of an archive of a backup, somewhere.
                Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
                Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
                Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

                I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.

                Comment

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