High trustee payment?

[NowImDownInIt]

Justbroke is the man ;) Tellin' ya..he should go to law school! I'd hire him!

I'm not yet convinced that he hasn't! LOL, j/k.. He did totally set us straight though.. What you pay to unsecured is based on what you can pay.. and that's based to some extent on your DMI.

[Pandora]

Justbroke is the man ;) Tellin' ya..he should go to law school! I'd hire him!

[artgood]

Awesome post!

I'm confident we chose the right attorney because he's basically told me the same things. That income is just one piece of the puzzle in the process. Being over the median does NOT mean you cannot file a CH7. I still sit and worry since we are right over the median--and after I saw him today, he told me to stop getting so hung up on that one aspect. It's only the first step at determining qualification.

I hoping that will be the case for us as well. We are only about $150 over the median.

My wife works for a bank that offers incentive money for credit card accounts she sells (how ironic) and also for how well the branch performs. She may or may not get these incentives in any given month. Hopefully, our attorney will somehow take that into account. Get rid of that, and we are under the median.

[JEM]

Just a little information. Plan payment is NOT the DMI value calculated by the Chapter 13 Means Test on Official Form B22C. Plan payment is based upon a combination of the DMI on Form B22C and payments on secured debt (if paid through Trustee), priority debt (taxes), and the Trustee administrative fees. We have had some people complain that their plan payment was $2000 and how they were going to pay their mortgage, not knowing that the mortgage and car payment was included in the "plan" payment. I'm just trying to get people to not confuse DMI with a Chapter 13 plan payment.

As a debtor who filed and was confirmed in a Chapter 13 plan, and later converted to a Chapter 7 and was discharged, the amount of money you make is only a "factor" when determining eligibility for Chapter 7. It's not the only factor. I am over $100K over the median, and my Means Test (Chapter 7 Official Form B22A) shows negative "DMI" and my old Chapter 13 Means Test (Form B22C) showed only +$60 or so.

A Chapter 13 "plan" can also be difficult to pinpoint since any assets that are being kept may factor into the "Chapter 7 liquidation test". Each individual case can have a very intricate set of numbers to deal with and generally is "unique" to an extent.

Here's the bottom line. If you want to file Chapter 7 and are over-the-median, make sure you work with an attorney that knows that over-the-median income debtors get Chapter 7 discharges every single day. This may not mean that your numbers will work, but at least the attorney will work with you, and not just tell you that you "make too much".

Second, if you are in a Chapter 13, make sure you work with an attorney that will create a budget that works for you. Make sure that the attorney will go to bat and fight a Trustee objection to confirmation, if your lookback is NOT an indicator of your current situation. I'm tired of hearing about so many attorneys that just tell their clients, that's the payment, so "make it work". A good attorney will explain the numbers and allow you to ask questions about other factors that may influence the payment.

Awesome post!

I'm confident we chose the right attorney because he's basically told me the same things. That income is just one piece of the puzzle in the process. Being over the median does NOT mean you cannot file a CH7. I still sit and worry since we are right over the median--and after I saw him today, he told me to stop getting so hung up on that one aspect. It's only the first step at determining qualification.

[alorth]

J
Here's the bottom line. If you want to file Chapter 7 and are over-the-median, make sure you work with an attorney that knows that over-the-median income debtors get Chapter 7 discharges every single day. This may not mean that your numbers will work, but at least the attorney will work with you, and not just tell you that you "make too much".

Second, if you are in a Chapter 13, make sure you work with an attorney that will create a budget that works for you. Make sure that the attorney will go to bat and fight a Trustee objection to confirmation, if your lookback is NOT an indicator of your current situation. I'm tired of hearing about so many attorneys that just tell their clients, that's the payment, so "make it work". A good attorney will explain the numbers and allow you to ask questions about other factors that may influence the payment.

Thank you so much for saying this. Its what I've been thinking about so much recently. It seems that the attorneys I speak with when trying to find one (I haven't retianed one yet) automatically says "You are over the median by so much (about 60K) that there is no way a 7 is an option for one of you, let alone both"....and they say that w/o even looking at the situation in detail, or really listening to us.

Its like they are bored with their job, and think "Its just another BK...they're all the same".

[artgood]

justbroke... thanks for that. We will be barely over the median, and my aim is to still file a chapter 7 (if we can). Otherwise, I will expect my attorney to help me, honestly, get the lowest repayment plan possible. I don't have a problem paying some of my debt back, on the contrary I would reasonably like to do that, but I will fire my attorney and look for another one if they just hang up their hat and stick it to me.

[justbroke]

Just a little information. Plan payment is NOT the DMI value calculated by the Chapter 13 Means Test on Official Form B22C. Plan payment is based upon a combination of the DMI on Form B22C and payments on secured debt (if paid through Trustee), priority debt (taxes), and the Trustee administrative fees. We have had some people complain that their plan payment was $2000 and how they were going to pay their mortgage, not knowing that the mortgage and car payment was included in the "plan" payment. I'm just trying to get people to not confuse DMI with a Chapter 13 plan payment.

As a debtor who filed and was confirmed in a Chapter 13 plan, and later converted to a Chapter 7 and was discharged, the amount of money you make is only a "factor" when determining eligibility for Chapter 7. It's not the only factor. I am over $100K over the median, and my Means Test (Chapter 7 Official Form B22A) shows negative "DMI" and my old Chapter 13 Means Test (Form B22C) showed only +$60 or so.

A Chapter 13 "plan" can also be difficult to pinpoint since any assets that are being kept may factor into the "Chapter 7 liquidation test". Each individual case can have a very intricate set of numbers to deal with and generally is "unique" to an extent.

Here's the bottom line. If you want to file Chapter 7 and are over-the-median, make sure you work with an attorney that knows that over-the-median income debtors get Chapter 7 discharges every single day. This may not mean that your numbers will work, but at least the attorney will work with you, and not just tell you that you "make too much".

Second, if you are in a Chapter 13, make sure you work with an attorney that will create a budget that works for you. Make sure that the attorney will go to bat and fight a Trustee objection to confirmation, if your lookback is NOT an indicator of your current situation. I'm tired of hearing about so many attorneys that just tell their clients, that's the payment, so "make it work". A good attorney will explain the numbers and allow you to ask questions about other factors that may influence the payment.

[momofthree]

Sorry to hack this thread but I think my situation is related with an attorney pushing me to sign a chp13 plan with monthly payment of $1300 per mo.
Now, I went online for BK means test and my DMI(disposable mo. income) is negative($-450). Based on these info, do you guys think I can file chapter 13+ 2nd lien strip? If so, what will be my expected monthly payment on the chp13 plan and how it will be calculated since online showed negative/nill? My attorney told me that only chp13 can make me keep my house and car and other assets I have now.

Reason I'm turning to you guys for help is I consulted with an attorney in my area.. He told me he can get me into a chp13 plan to only pay atty fee+trustee admin fee of around $200 per mos and no need to worry about unsecured debts like cred cards plus my 2nd loan can be stripped. However, when we meet to review numbers, he almost forced me to sign chp13 BK paperworks which I said I cannot sign since I cannot afford the payment plan of $1300 per mos. What I notice though is he seemed to reduced the expenses I filled out before which when subtracted to my income it become as DMI=$1300.. He also have 2-DMI calculations, one which we see online when you google(also showing negative DMI) and one using formula income-expenses which in my case equals $1300.

I really appreciate anyone's thoughts and advise from this forum on how to make chp13 work for me and my family and be able to save our home.. I don't think I can afford to pay $1300 per mos..I know a lot of you have experience this with some attorneys already so please advise me on my situation..

thanks in advance and I appreciate any help you can extend..

-J

I agree with newbie, you really need your own thread. It sounds like you took the "means test" which is uses set numbers for your auto expenses & living expenses. However, it sounds like your actual expenses, that you put into your schedule J, are much lower than the IRS standards. For example, is your car payment less than $496? Is your rent less than the average for your area? Did you include your 2nd mortgage payment on the means test?

Also, did the check stubs you took with you include any overtime, bonuses, etc? That can also skew the numbers.

[newbie2]

Sorry to hack this thread but I think my situation is related with an attorney pushing me to sign a chp13 plan with monthly payment of $1300 per mo.
Now, I went online for BK means test and my DMI(disposable mo. income) is negative($-450). Based on these info, do you guys think I can file chapter 13+ 2nd lien strip? If so, what will be my expected monthly payment on the chp13 plan and how it will be calculated since online showed negative/nill? My attorney told me that only chp13 can make me keep my house and car and other assets I have now.

Reason I'm turning to you guys for help is I consulted with an attorney in my area.. He told me he can get me into a chp13 plan to only pay atty fee+trustee admin fee of around $200 per mos and no need to worry about unsecured debts like cred cards plus my 2nd loan can be stripped. However, when we meet to review numbers, he almost forced me to sign chp13 BK paperworks which I said I cannot sign since I cannot afford the payment plan of $1300 per mos. What I notice though is he seemed to reduced the expenses I filled out before which when subtracted to my income it become as DMI=$1300.. He also have 2-DMI calculations, one which we see online when you google(also showing negative DMI) and one using formula income-expenses which in my case equals $1300.

I really appreciate anyone's thoughts and advise from this forum on how to make chp13 work for me and my family and be able to save our home.. I don't think I can afford to pay $1300 per mos..I know a lot of you have experience this with some attorneys already so please advise me on my situation..

thanks in advance and I appreciate any help you can extend..

-J

It would be better if you started your own thread with as much information as you are comfy giving. We don't know the reason why your DMI when you do it is showing a negative, yet the attorney you consulted is showing a high payment.

There are so many variables: Assets that aren't exempt, priority payments (taxes, child support, etc), "stripping" the 2nd mortgage can bump that payment to going to your unsecureds, the amount of arrears on your first mortgage, etc.

Please start your own thread and detail what you can and we will surely try to help you walk through this.

[johnjan2009]

Sorry to hack this thread but I think my situation is related with an attorney pushing me to sign a chp13 plan with monthly payment of $1300 per mo.
Now, I went online for BK means test and my DMI(disposable mo. income) is negative($-450). Based on these info, do you guys think I can file chapter 13+ 2nd lien strip? If so, what will be my expected monthly payment on the chp13 plan and how it will be calculated since online showed negative/nill? My attorney told me that only chp13 can make me keep my house and car and other assets I have now.

Reason I'm turning to you guys for help is I consulted with an attorney in my area.. He told me he can get me into a chp13 plan to only pay atty fee+trustee admin fee of around $200 per mos and no need to worry about unsecured debts like cred cards plus my 2nd loan can be stripped. However, when we meet to review numbers, he almost forced me to sign chp13 BK paperworks which I said I cannot sign since I cannot afford the payment plan of $1300 per mos. What I notice though is he seemed to reduced the expenses I filled out before which when subtracted to my income it become as DMI=$1300.. He also have 2-DMI calculations, one which we see online when you google(also showing negative DMI) and one using formula income-expenses which in my case equals $1300.

I really appreciate anyone's thoughts and advise from this forum on how to make chp13 work for me and my family and be able to save our home.. I don't think I can afford to pay $1300 per mos..I know a lot of you have experience this with some attorneys already so please advise me on my situation..

thanks in advance and I appreciate any help you can extend..

-J

[NowImDownInIt]

DMI

I have looked over many questions and responses on this entire site. I completely understand the purpose of the site and that most people on here are not creditors. I think an eye on the side of the fence is warranted. The debtor in question here is mainly a child support creditor who has racked up more than 30K in arrears while being gainfully employed the entire time. Family court judge gave him plenty of time to pay up. Well that lasted one month and he is back to the same thing except now he has filed Chapter 13 for the sole purpose of delaying the arrears and to top it off is not paying current support once again.

When he calculated his DMI, he throws in enhanced expenses to lower DMI, to avoid paying just that much longer. To top it all off he will never, ever stay in Chapter 13 and is only using it to avoid paying to support his child...So when it it suggested that you raise your expenses above what they really are, it is simply unfair.....You incurred the debt...You are asking for a fresh start...Bankruptcy is allowing you to get the fresh start. The least you can do is be honest..everything I read on this site is basically a way to take advantage of your creditors and the "system"...Maybe it is time to take a look in the mirror.

I don't really understand where you are coming from. Lowering your DMI will not affect what you owe in CS. CS is not dischargeable and when all is said and done, he will still owe whatever he owes. Your righteous indignation is unfounded. People in here are not trying to be "simply unfair", especially not to individuals such as yourself. Is the OP the debtor you speak of? If that is the case, that explains the high payment as CS is a priority debt and is required to be paid in full over the life of the plan. I would look at it this way, if my ex owed me $30K in CS arrears, I would welcome a 13 that would require him to pay it back.

[parkd]

The only debt I have is the underwater amount on my house loan. I make a good salary and have a lot of DMI unfortunately. I would think that many people out there are in the same boat with the downturn in real estate. It makes ZERO logical sense imo for anyone to claim ch13 BK if they are going to be on a 100% repayment plan if their debt is primarily due to RE. You wreck your credit and for what? You still have to pay back the full amount. Much smarter imo to work out a payment plan with the bank or to even let it go to wage garnishment. At least in wage garnishment they will only get 25% of your monthly income. I could theoretically be coughing up 50% of my monthly income to pay back the full debt of a house that is underwater all because these same banks lent $300k to illegal alien deadbeats which is who took over my neighborhood prior to the crash. We had 70% drops in value from peak and the neighborhood has went to the dogs with trash and crime and major overcrowding. Ridiculous to think that I would EVER pay them back 100% of this debt and still end up with a BK on my record. Makes no sense at all.

[LadyInTheRed]

So when it it suggested that you raise your expenses above what they really are, it is simply unfair.....You incurred the debt...You are asking for a fresh start...Bankruptcy is allowing you to get the fresh start. The least you can do is be honest..everything I read on this site is basically a way to take advantage of your creditors and the "system"...Maybe it is time to take a look in the mirror.

Who suggested raising expenses above actual expenses? I've never seen anyone suggest that on this board, unless a debtor has lowered their expenses to an unlivable level to try to stay out of bankruptcy. This site educates debtors about their rights and how to navigate a confusing system. It also acts as a support group for people in similar situations going through difficult times in their lives. Don't worry about the creditors. I think they can protect themselves from mean old debtors taking advantage of them. They don't even have to when it comes to a debtor's expenses. The trustee is there to object to any unreasonable expenses claimed by debtors.

ETA: Who is the "debtor in question" you speak of? I see nothing in prior posts by the OP or Guest123 that says anything about child support debt or that suggests either is being dishonest. You're obviously just stirring the pot and I'm sorry I responded in the first place.

[JEM]

Like I have said we did the mean test and didn't qualify for ch.7.......


There are people on here that have given up some expenses to pay a high payment plan because of secure/priority debts! Are you saying there is not?
In their case and MY case just paying your DMI is not what it is...plain and simple.

I don't see why we are still having this discussion when all you are doing is repeating what I said but continue to say DMI is the ultimate rule when you just posted in certain situations it is not.

In my eyes giving up expenses does not equal DMI! Maybe this is where we are not on the same page.
And agian your post as others are not on topic, which I feel mine is.
If the poster doesn't have the DMI for the proposed plan payment then whats the deal.......common sense tells me there are secured/priority debt that needs to be paid in the plan!

We will be over the median when we file due to some OT. We are basically out of time and can no longer wait it out. This is how our attorney explained it to me. Being over the median is only ONE part of the equation. If you don't pass the means test, the next step is looking at expenses to figure out how much you have left over--your DMI. He said even if that came out where you had some extra to pay into a CH13, it could be argued that the OT is NOT a guarantee. OT is the only thing pushing us over. The OT has been CUT WAY BACK now for dh, but because of a lawsuit we can't put filing off much longer.

Anyway, just thought I'd offer up what I have been told by my attorney.

[slg547]

DMI

I have looked over many questions and responses on this entire site. I completely understand the purpose of the site and that most people on here are not creditors. I think an eye on the side of the fence is warranted. The debtor in question here is mainly a child support creditor who has racked up more than 30K in arrears while being gainfully employed the entire time. Family court judge gave him plenty of time to pay up. Well that lasted one month and he is back to the same thing except now he has filed Chapter 13 for the sole purpose of delaying the arrears and to top it off is not paying current support once again.

When he calculated his DMI, he throws in enhanced expenses to lower DMI, to avoid paying just that much longer. To top it all off he will never, ever stay in Chapter 13 and is only using it to avoid paying to support his child...So when it it suggested that you raise your expenses above what they really are, it is simply unfair.....You incurred the debt...You are asking for a fresh start...Bankruptcy is allowing you to get the fresh start. The least you can do is be honest..everything I read on this site is basically a way to take advantage of your creditors and the "system"...Maybe it is time to take a look in the mirror.