Blasted by Trustee at Meeting of Creditors

[newstart]

I filed chapter 13 pro se. Did alot of research, looked at other peoples papers, and also utilized the bankruptcy clerks office and the US Bankruptcy site.

Well when I went to my meeting of creditors the Trustee wanted to talk to me. He told me that in his time only a few people were successful filing at chapter 13 pro se. He asked me how did I do it? and he wanted to advise me that if someone had helped me and I was not disclosing their name they could be in trouble and so could I. I explained to him that no one helped me and if they would have I would have no problem disclosing a name. He continued to reference the getting in trouble if someone had helped me and advised me to get an attorney.

That conversation made me feel like my paper work was too good so he felt no layman could have done it themselves and that I was a liar. At that point I was actually afraid to go through the meeting for fear that not having an attorney would be held against me.

Anybody have any thoughts on this? I didn't have an attorney because I could not afford one.

[kornellred]

If you could not afford an attorney, why are you filing Chapter 13? If you can fund a Chapter 13, the attorney's payment can be added into the plan payments. All that would do is subtract from the payment amounts to unsecured creditors.
No-asset Chapter 7 filings are the easiest to handle on a pro se basis. Have fun when the trustee files the first objections to your plan proposal, which no doubt he or she will.

[momofthree]

From reading the OP's siggy, it appears he has a prior ch.7 in '06, so he doesn't qualify for another 7 yet.

[karm43]

hmm well he probaly pissed cause if you had a attorney he could will and deal. Sorry but lets face most of them are all in cahoots with each other, then they act like their on your side. Here a question if attorneys make more with a chap7 why are they always pushing a chap13?

[andy158]

Sorry but lets face most of them are all in cahoots with each other, then they act like their on your side.

Just like politicians. They put on a good public display of professionalism, but are all bedfellows.

[justbroke]

I may just be less skeptical, but I don't find this to be a problem at all. I too filed pro se and even had the most respected attorney in the district congratulate me on my confirmation. My plan was done so well, a member of the local bar asked how I did it and that they would use part of what I did in my plan, in the new district model plan. The Trustee was impressed, but never "pressed" me on anything.

There are many Trustees -- and I've witnessed it -- that are concerned about ghost writing (admitted attorneys who do all the papers without "appearing" or filing notice) and especially the so-called "doc prep" companies that are actually doing more than just preparing documents.

On the other hand, the Trustee may be concerned that whoever did your plan did it so wrong that it will not be confirmed. Perhaps there are errors related to, and I'm not saying that you did, blindly copying other plans from around the District... unless your District has a model plan.

As for attorneys that "push" Chapter 13s... sorry. The law is that if you have more than about $200 in DMI, then you are a Chapter 13. Why spend $2,500-$3,500 on a Chapter 7 only to need to convert to a Chapter 13 anyhow. Not everyone qualifies for a Chapter 7 discharge. You'd be surprised by how many people "think" there is a lot of pushing to Chapter 13. In fact, there are 4 times as many Chapter 7 filings as Chapter 13 filings each year. So less than 20% of cases are Chapter 13s, so there isn't that much "pushing" unless the person doesn't qualify due to their disposable monthly income (DMI) or other asset related issues.

As for fees, it's easier to earn in a Chapter 7. Remember, there are practitioners out there that are better at Chapter 7s than Chapter 13s, with some being equally great at both.

[newstart]

Thanks for all of your comments. I was not aware that payments to the attorney could be included in my plan. All of my forms came from the us bankruptcy site. I only viewed other peoples cases to get an idea if I had things in the right places. I am going to talk with an attorney and see if he can review my papers and we will go from there. I would have loved to refile a ch 7 but can't do that until next year if I qualify.

[despritfreya]

Sorry, but the attny bashing here is not called for. Yes there are a few bad apples that make it seem we are all bad, but those bad apples are not the norm.

Most bk attnys help consumers because they see the hardships that are put upon folks by the credit industry (a major reason I rarely handle a creditor case). There are more lucrative legal areas available to practice in.

As JB points out, the decision to file a 13 vs. a 7 depends upon many factors, least of which, in OP's case, is that OP is not eligible for a 7 discharge until either late 2013 or early 2014. Most attnys will give the debtor their options. They will make recommendations as to which of the options the attny thinks is best. The rest is up to the debtor.

Des.

[papie]

hmm well he probaly pissed cause if you had a attorney he could will and deal. Sorry but lets face most of them are all in cahoots with each other, then they act like their on your side. Here a question if attorneys make more with a chap7 why are they always pushing a chap13?

I kind of like that my attorney and trustee are "in cahoots" with each other. It's worked in my favor. I hear the horror stories on these forums about trustees being jackasses and fly by night attorneys. A good attorney who knows the trustee can be a great asset.

[justbroke]

I think the venomous and spiteful talk against attorneys are from those folks that have had a problem with a particular attorney. Granted that there are some bad attorneys out there. There are even some really bad, and vicious, Trustees out there as well. However, that is not the norm from a professional standpoint.

The reason why some people don't like the fact that they are all practicing attorneys and a member of the same "bar", they think that they work together in order to hurt the debtor. When, in fact, that is the furthest from the truth. The reason they work together is because they MUST work together. You can't always have an adversarial relationship between the attorneys and Trustees because it will wear them both out. Litigation costs money. If your attorney can get you a better deal by working with the Trustee on a particular "contested" issue, then your attorney presents it to you. If you don't like it, pay your attorney to fight... but is it worth paying an attorney 20 hours at $200/hour to fight for the $200 exemption that you are trying to keep?

A smart Trustee actually doesn't want to wheel and deal. They want rational thought behind what a debtor is attempting to do or claim in an exemption. What if the debtor, in this case, claimed an exemption for something that is wrong and the debtor now stands the chance to lose the property? The Trustee is not supposed to give legal advice at all, so all they can say is "you should really hire an attorney". Despite that the Trustee is trying to be as nice as possible, many will chalk it up to an "evil" Trustee or that they are nothing but evil attorneys that are a member of a secret club called "The Bar".

I guess my point is... just don't jump to conclusions and start blaming attorneys for all the problems with our cases. After all, we did get ourselves into this mess of needing to file bankruptcy, whether voluntarily or involuntarily.

[Pjmax]

Newstart, the way you described the conversation with the TT, it doesn't sound like you were 'blasted', but it sounds to me like the TT was making sure you were aware of the risks.

So, how did the rest of the meeting go? You only commented on the beginning.

[tigergem]

If you could not afford an attorney, why are you filing Chapter 13? If you can fund a Chapter 13, the attorney's payment can be added into the plan payments. All that would do is subtract from the payment amounts to unsecured creditors.
No-asset Chapter 7 filings are the easiest to handle on a pro se basis. Have fun when the trustee files the first objections to your plan proposal, which no doubt he or she will.

Interesting comment. I filed Chapter 13 Pro Se and my unsecured are getting less than 1%. How would attorney fees be subtracted from that? Do tell.

Newstart, more power to you (assuming you are qualified to file!). I believe I was asked at my 341 if I had help with my paper work, but certainly not "blasted" for it. I have had the Trustee and Counsel for the Trustee compliment me on my paper work, subsequent motions, modifications, and ask me about my "legal background". I told them I watched Perry Mason reruns at gramma's house when I was a kid. It's not an easy process, unless you enjoy this kind of thing, but if you can do it and do it well, then congratulations. Chin up and good luck.

[justbroke]

I have been asked about my "legal background" by the Trustee, some other BK attorneys, my HOA attorneys (yes plural), and some credit attorneys! I mean, the creditor attorneys in their big highrise (45-story) Ivory Tower and plush surroundings didn't scare me. I guess they ask so that they can size you up and try to figure out how you know so much and how you are able to navigate the minefield!

[tigergem]

I have been asked about my "legal background" by the Trustee, some other BK attorneys, my HOA attorneys (yes plural), and some credit attorneys! I mean, the creditor attorneys in their big highrise (45-story) Ivory Tower and plush surroundings didn't scare me. I guess they ask so that they can size you up and try to figure out how you know so much and how you are able to navigate the minefield!

You don't think it is just a genuine compliment? I mean, really... it might just be that!

I don't find them terribly scary either. Not really.

[justbroke]

No, I think they generally wonder how an uneducated (juris prudence) pro se can navigate the system. A compliment would have been, simply, great job!