Forced to go bankrupt

[FreshLikeADaisy]

My ex was ordered to pay certain debts in our divorce. When he didn't they came after me. I was told it didn't matter what the divorce papers said my name was on the loan so I was still responsible. My only course of action was to take him to court to get him for contempt. Well, I didn't have money for a lawyer, nor money to pay the debts. So I couldn't do anything. The creditor pursued me for years. My ex they claimed they couldn't find. I gave them his address, it didn't matter they still came after me, they actually made my life a living hell. Finally they did garnish his wages, but that literally took years.

So making your ex responsible for half the debt is no guarantee he will actually pay. If he was creepy enough to run all this debt up without any regard for you while you're married do you think he will all of sudden do the right thing and pay these bills? And since they are in your name, they will come after you plain and simple. They will hound you, garnish your wages, whatever the law will allow to collect this money.

BK will end any chance of them coming after you, no matter what the divorce papers say. Now far as cc going after him, do you really care? He made this mess, and if it's legal for the cc do go after him as an authorized user, then so be it.

Justplaintired, GREAT advice. This has been my experience as well. I have never seen a creditor give a damn about a divorce decree: they go after anyone they possibly can, no matter what the division of debts and assets were by the court. And like you said, when you wave your divorce decree they just tell you to take the ex back to court.

I'm really glad you mentioned that, because I hate to see people take false hope in an expensive action that just doesn't matter much. The divorce itself is worth every penny -- call it his "Be Gone Fee" -- but the division of debts isn't worth the paper it's written on as far as actually getting a creditor to cease or redirect collection efforts. If anyone's had any luck with that, like you said, I'd be very, very surprised.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

If I have removed him as "authorized user", will it still account if I try to make him liable for this debt during our divorce?

If you're asking if you can make him accountable in divorce for his "share" of the debt (*snort!*) well, yeah, on paper. But as an authorized user he is not legally responsible for a dime, and the creditor will inevitably come back to you for payment. The divorce decree won't change that at all.

There are a few transactions which have his name on them. For example, on my American Express card, it states, "Activity for A**hole" and then for myself. His has all the things HE did. On another card, there is a "transfer balance made by A**hole". Would I be able to get him on those?

You mean, through the credit card company? As in have them call the debt fraud, or successfully dispute it? Unfortunately, no, because the transfer balance was made by A**hole, and you made A**hole an authorized user... sorry. However, it may help you a great deal in fighting against spousal support, etc in court.

How about if I call the credit card company and give them his information so they can contact HIM for the transactions which are clearly his?

That only flies if the account was applied for jointly. Because the account was applied for solely by you, you might as well be telling them to call your senator: an authorized user has no legal responsibility for his/her charges on your credit card. Period.

This is not true for the fraud apps, though. Any card he opened in your name without your knowledge, you can dispute. You can also add a "consumer statement" to your credit reports that indicates you have been the victim of fraud and identity theft, which may help some. You can (and should) also get a police report filed on any accounts that were opened fraudulently; this will go a long way toward getting those particular accts successfully closed and removed from your credit.

One can only hope that they shut his accts down in the middle of his dinner at Ruth's Chris... bastard.

Lastly, what about my own personal cards which I pay on time? If I file BK, would I lose them too? Can I call the company and explain what has happened so that I can keep my cards?

Well, unfortunately, the answer is no... which is why I mentioned before to be prepared to live credit-free for a while. Now, chances are very good that because you had a great credit history for so long, it won't be hard for you to rebuild credit. But during the bk at least, be prepared to live credit-free, and then start getting some credit cards of your own again to rebuild your credit history. It won't be that long before you're back to where you were -- definitely not compared to spending years trying to pay it all off -- but yes, it will take some time.

In general, all unsecured creditors (like credit cards) pull your credit report regularly, and the second they see an "IIB" (included in bankruptcy) on any of your trade lines they close your acct immediately. So even those cards he had no access to... they will be closed. But those debts will be discharged in bk as well, so it's VERY important to stop using them now.

See, you're already going to be dealing with the possibility in bk that his charges will look like fraud on your part -- it's because of the way the new bk law is written -- so even the cards that you'd like to keep, either pay them in full every month or stop using them altogether. The LAST thing you want is the appearance that you ran up debt just to discharge it in bk. I know that's the farthest thing from your mind, but it won't be to the court, so you have to be prepared for that and stop using even the "good" the cards now if there will be any balance on the acct the day you file for bk.

BTW, you have to list every debt when you file bk, not just the ones you want to be freed of. In addition, Chapter 7 discharges ALL debt (allowed by bk law, some debts like child support and taxes are not dischargeable) so not listing a debt because you'd like to keep using it is not acceptable. You have to list EVERY debt. If an acct has a zero balance, you don't have to list it (zero balance = no debt) but anything with a balance, even the "good" cards that he didn't run up, you'll have to declare.

I personally feel embarrassed about telling these companies who trusted me that now, I cannot pay them. Man this sucks. I truly am not like this and it kills me to know that these companies will get a note saying, "I took your money and I can't pay you back."

It bothers you tremendously, because you're an honest person. But to them, it's no big deal, trust me on this. As you look around this site and read all the posts, you'll see that for them, it's a business thing, nothing more. Let it be a business decision for you as well. Also, there's nothing to stop you from signing reaffirmation agreements with accts you want to keep, if the lender will allow. Discuss this with the attys you see.

I know he will get his... I just hope it's soon. He's also asking for spousal support b/c I make more money than he does. What a loser.

Heh, yeah, a prince among men.

BTW, all of these credit card charges won't mean a thing to the creditors, but I bet you can use his fraudulent and overt misuse of your credit to argue AGAINST spousal support. You could probably even have your atty make the case that the marriage itself was fraudulently undertaken by him for the purpose of draining you dry. THIS is where getting a background check and PI will help you, if you can demonstrate to the divorce court judge that he has done this before and it was no accident. It may help a great deal *there*! Just not with the creditors.

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me. You'll never know how much I appreciate it.

It's all good, Angie. There are very, very few people on this board who haven't been through their own personal hell. Turning around and using your misfortune to help other people is a silver lining, and this place is full of them. I truly feel for you, I know you're kicking yourself black and blue for having misjudged his character, letting this happen, and whenever you stop it seems like there's a line of people waiting their turn but I promise you, it WILL get better. You just have to hang on and be courageous a little longer. If you've gotten this far and you're still kicking, I guarantee you'll make it through and into better days. I wish you the very best!!!

[Flamingo]

I was married for 5 yrs & knew him 2 yrs prior to that. You make great points Flamingo. I have thought about the same thing and I wish I would have done a background check on him, but who would have known? I mean, who does that?

"Oh, you wanna marry me? Hold on for two weeks while I do a background check on you to make sure you are not going to take my credit cards when they come in the mail and activate them and create an online acct so you I won't get statements and find out what you are really doing."

I do assure you that he will probably get some other sucker and TRY it on her. LOL... I say "try" b/c every chick I see near him, I will warn.

As far as the lawyer, that's a tough one too. I mean, how do you know who is a "good" one or not? Before appearing in court, everyone in my family kept telling me not to worry b/c no judge was going to approve what he did. Well, the debt wasn't even mentioned... actually, the judge said, "yes, I see so many people charging more than what they can afford to pay, so that's not new."

He made it sound like the debt belonged to both of us. Sick... just sick b/c I swear I had no idea.

I'm online reading and trying to find out as much as I can. I cannot believe how this "authorized user" crap works. They are not held responsible AT ALL for what they do. Man, some laws have to change.

So, anyone have answers to my 'good credit cards'? Can I keep them?

Thanks again for the replies...

Angie

I didn't mean to imply that you made a bad choice or that you should have checked him out (really, who does that as you say?) but some guys are so slick they take their time at doing stuff like this - there is so much in the news on and on TV about how guys financially drain long lines of intelligent woman who were swept off their feet and totally trusted him. While he could have had all that lined up since he knew you had access to great credit and/or funds, he just could have been a creep who took what he could before getting out.

You need good legal advice because in many states that debt would be considered joint debt and there also appears to be fraud involved. Most attorneys give free consultations for divorce and/or bankruptcy. Call your state Bar Association and see if there is an attorney in your area that maybe does both or is in a firm that has both available. They can give you references of attorneys who are Bar members and of good reputation/standing in your state. Don't go with Discount Legal or the one with the TV ads....you get what you pay for.

If you file, all your credit cards and debt would need to be included, unless you don't have a balance on your "good" credit cards.

I wouldn't go another day without consulting a lawyer as to the full spectrum of the situation you have explained on here. Best of luck to you and there are better days ahead once you get beyond this.

[southernbelle]

I had Platinum and Gold cards with GREAT interest rates on them. When I file for Chapter 7, I had to list them so they go bye bye. I will have to start over. I had excellent credit, but all of that is gone now. You can't pick and choose and I doubt the credit cards you want to keep will want to deal with you after they see that bankruptcy notice (if you file).

Another thing about filing the divorce. As justplaintired said, just because you get a divorce decree that says he is responsible to pay, doesn't mean he will and if he doesn't they WILL come after you. I knew that when I filed and just filed for the divorce without asking him for anything except my maiden name back. That way, I could get the divorce quicker and file my BK before too long. He's such a con artist and a major league "donkey" that he would have NEVER agreed to paying anything and would have dragged the divorce on forever. He's so slick, he would have continuously changed jobs or moved to keep under the radar, so putting that in the divorce settlement would have been pointless. I know him too well.

What I plan to do instead is to file BK and hope all goes well when I get discharged, they can't come after me anymore and will look for him. Well I say good luck, but if even one creditor catches up to him, I'll be satisfied.

I knew my ex for 2 years before I married him, and we were married for 9 years after that. No matter how long you know someone, you might not even know them at all.

And the lawyer thing, it might be a good idea to get a reference from a friend or the state board. Short of calling around from the phone book, you can't know for sure. My atty. seemed like gold until I paid her. I'm still waiting for a final bill from her because she owes me money and ignores my letters requesting a final bill. I might file a complaint with the state board because we're talking about $400-$500. You never know about them. I hate lawyers, but occasionally you need them.

[Angie]

Great information guys. Thanks very much. I'm going to see another lawyer on Monday to get a second opinion. Thanks for the spousal support info. Yes, I will use that. I'm glad I found this forum. Each day, I'll learn more and more... thanks again. I feel better knowing there is a light at the end of the tunnel... even for dummies like me.

Angie

[rfassett]

OK, I will play the devel's advocate hear for just a moment. Angie, did you really not know that he was charging up $50,000 worth of debt? I mean, that's not just pocket change. If you were married for five years, did it never occur to you to ask how he may have paid for this or that? There should have been items showing up or consumed on a regular basis that that should have made you wonder, no? I am just curious as to whether the divorce court, the creditors, the BK trustee, and/or the BK court will judge you to be just as cupable. Most especially if you shared in the "spoils of the war". Now I should probably put a disclaimer here and say that I married my high school sweet heart more years ago than I care to disclose. So I can not relate to what you are going through, but those are just some thoughts that popped into my head as I was reading through this thread. I think the advice to get a good divorce attorney is understated. I live in a somewhat rural area and within a 30 mile radius there are a bunch of divorce lawyers. But there is only one that I would want on my side - and if she were on the opposing team's side, I would simply throw in the towel. She is that good. When I hear of friends or acquaintances contemplating divorce, I always encourage them to enlist the aid of this particular attorney before their spouse does. My advice to you is to find that person in your area. Not all attorneys are the same. Good luck!

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Rfassett, in Angie's defense... I get what you're saying, but when a woman is with a man like this, he does everything in his power to downplay and especially avoid altogether such signs as you mention. And I do mean *everything*. Because the point of it all is to keep you (the wife) in place and pliable until he has taken everything he can AND arranged for another soft place to land. If he's good at it, you'll never know until the very end, like Angie, and usually accidentally.

A socipath like this can easily make it so that any question from his wife means an argument, any doubt means you don't love him, any reluctance means you don't support him, and any thing else is either a) complete coincidence, or b) someone out to get him. That, and he's had a really hard life, so you should take into consideration all he has suffered :sniffle, teary blink: before you MERCILESSLY ADD to his sadness and burden by QUESTIONING anything when you already KNOW how very much he loves you.... And it didn't start out like this: no, the beginning was a dream. It's like boiling a frog, you have to start with cold water and turn up the heat degree by degree. That's the way these guys operate.

I know what you're getting at, Rfassett, I really do, and that basic wisdom and questioning is where I am in my life. Finally. But older and wiser comes at a cost, and for me it was going through the wringer of the kind of sociopath that Angie was married to. It's hard for a guy to understand just how it can go on that long, or the woman see NOTHING, but it really does. There are plenty of people in this world without a conscience, and some of them are guys who serially marry their marks. It is what it is...

Dude, where do you think the Lifetime Channel gets all its TRUE stories from??? LOL!!!

[rfassett]

What's a "Lifetime Channel"? Does it carry any sports programs? If not, I don't think I get it on my TV. I guess I will just have to get my TRUE stories from the bkforum. Really - it doesn't get more true than it does here, wouldn't you agree?

[Angie]

Flamingo, don't feel bad... I KNOW I made a bad choice. LOL... and I honestly do wish I could have done a background check b/c he was very good at this and I'm sure he's done it before.

Angie, did you really not know that he was charging up $50,000 worth of debt? I mean, that's not just pocket change.

Believe it or not, I did not know. See, he was responsible for paying the bills in the house. I paid the mortgage. I ASSumed that he was covering it all b/c I had electricity, gas and water, so why would I "check" to see if he was truly charging it on MY cards? Also, we are talking about 6 cards here, so he played around with them and they all had $10K to $20K in 'available credit'. Oh, and this was done in TWO years.

If you were married for five years, did it never occur to you to ask how he may have paid for this or that? There should have been items showing up or consumed on a regular basis that that should have made you wonder, no?

NOPE. I appreciate you asking b/c this will help me give details. I have asked for statements and in them I've discovered that he has paid past bills (his) with my cards, he has purchased airline tickets for his parents (names are on the AMEX) and he has taken out lots and lots of cash.

He wasn't buying jewelry or any huge items that I can 'see'. He was living off MY cards... gas, food, bills, etc. He gave me a surprise birthday party one year... lol... guess what? "I" paid for it!!! I remember the food, the cake and I found out where he got all the cool decorations. LOL... It's all there... he charged it ALL to MY credit cards. Even my navigation system... lol.

I am just curious as to whether the divorce court, the creditors, the BK trustee, and/or the BK court will judge you to be just as cupable.

Yes. I've heard this... my own attorney told me I was stupid for not checking. I know that NOW, but honestly, I had no need to check back then. As Daisy says, this guy was really slick and knew how to do this. He hid everything from me and I've found out NOW that he did ALL these transactions ONLINE!

When I hear of friends or acquaintances contemplating divorce, I always encourage them to enlist the aid of this particular attorney before their spouse does. My advice to you is to find that person in your area. Not all attorneys are the same. Good luck!

Yeah? WHERE IS SHE? LOL...

It's really hard for me at this point b/c I don't know what to look for. Honestly, this is the FIRST time I've had to search for law related issues and deal with attorneys. I'm one of those "goody-goodies" who actually DO exist out there, and I guess I'm getting screwed b/c I am too honest.

Even when the credit card companies call me, I find myself apologizing and crying when they tell me they can't post my payment until they verify with my bank that my money is there. It really sucks to have to apologize for someone else's doing... it sucks even more to pay for something I did not do or know about and it ROYALLY sucks that someone else tarnished my good name and that I cannot enjoy the freedom of having a credit card in case of emergencies.

Right now, I'm trying my hardest to keep myself and my family from appearing on the 6 o'clock news b/c they too are affected by this b/c they loved my XDH. He fooled everyone.

I have a career and make more money than he does, so everyone was surprised that I even married him. You know, I didn't "marry up" sort of speak and everyone expected me to 'do better', but he was a 'nice, sweet guy' and 'treated me well', so I didn't view his financial status as a prerequisite. As a matter of fact, I made him "authorized user" to help the jerk! Go figure.

Everyone welcomed him and understood why I married him, so my family and friends are also hurt by what he did, and please trust me when I say that WE HAD NO IDEA! Honest.

Ok, I'm rambling now... thanks for reading my vent if you've gotten this far. I feel so lost. I can't even have a cel phone b/c he ruined that too. He was supposed to pay for our phones... you know, b/c he was "nice" and all.

Thanks again to all of you for all your opinions, advice and encouragement. I am so glad I found this place.

Angie

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Angie, it may help you to understand... you got taken by a sociopath. Even the brightest and best judges of character don't spot them at first. It may make it a little bit easier to view it in that light, because you seem to be carrying a great deal of responsibility for his actions, which isn't good. No, you didn't check, but then most of us *don't* background check our spouses! Beyond that, what could you have done? I don't see a long list, honestly. You did the best you could with what you had, and you're facing this thing courageously and honestly.

For me, at least, there's nothing you could be doing better. You're taking concrete and well-reasoned steps to rebuild your sanity and finances, and resisting what has GOT to be the most god-awful urge to find him and set his hair on fire or something...

Oh, I do have a suggestion for you, though. I lost my cell phone acct too, but then I discovered throwaway phones. Oh, they rock! My favorite is Net10, and while you start off with the tiny little cheap phone they give you at first, you can go online and buy decent GSM phones that are not "locked" to any particular carrier, so you're not married to that cheap phone. And you can buy time *anywhere*. Next time you're in Walmart or Target or whatever, look over the disposable phones and compare prices. I've been kicking myself for not doing it years sooner! You buy the phone you want, the service is great, and it is all incredibly cheaper than any plan I ever had through Sprint, Alltel or AT&T.

Good luck!!! Let us know how it all goes....

[CindyLou]

Angie,
One thing you may consider is whether or not you live in a community property state. If you do, then he is EQUALLY responsible for any debt aquired during the marriage no matter who's name the card was in and they CAN come after him after you file.
Cindy

[Angie]

Really Cindy? I would love that... How do I find out? Who do I ask? Can I call the companies and tell them where he lives now? LOL... If so, I'll do it... although setting his hair on fire sounds more fun. Thanks Daisy... that made me LMAO! Trust me, I've wonderful dreams of removing his finger nails and fun stuff like that. :-)))

Angie

[rfassett]

"Community property" states include the following: Arizona, California, Idaho, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas and Wahington. And in the FWIW department, Wisconsin also has a marital property law similiar to community property. If you live in any of the other 41 states, then you do NOT live in a "community property" state and the referenced "community property" laws do not apply to you.

[Angie]

Great... there goes that! *sigh*
Should have stayed in Arizona! :=))
Thanks very much.

Angie

[southernbelle]

Rfassett, in Angie's defense... I get what you're saying, but when a woman is with a man like this, he does everything in his power to downplay and especially avoid altogether such signs as you mention. And I do mean *everything*. Because the point of it all is to keep you (the wife) in place and pliable until he has taken everything he can AND arranged for another soft place to land. If he's good at it, you'll never know until the very end, like Angie, and usually accidentally.!

I know it's a bit late, but when I read this quote, I shouted out loud. This is sooooo true!!!!! My ex. is a living example of this statement. He was so scared when I started to get my independence back and decided to put an end to his gravy train. He knew the free ride was coming to an end and tried EVERYTHING to keep me pliable.

Mostly he discouraged me by downplaying everything I suggested to get myself back on track. Little did I know that he was just keeping me from discovering what he was really doing. I found out after the fact why he was so weird about it. He was trying to buy himself time to find another soft place to land, but hopefully if my BK goes smoothly, he'll have to answer for some of the damage he's caused.

Sorry for the late post, but that was too good to pass up.