Would You Pay $300-$400 For A "Certified" Means Test

[HHM]

There is been a dramatic increase in the number of pro se filings, during the process of preparing your case, would you have considered paying an attorney, maybe $300 to $400 to perform just the means test for you?

I am not talking just some rinky-dink review of expenses, but actually get 6 months of pay stubs, your expenses, plug it all in, review it with you over the phone, suggest improvements.

If yes, why, if no, why?

Just curious

[WanabeFree]

People who are truely bankrupt especialy ch7 should not have to pay for anything. To me the Means test is a load of crap designed to line the Lawyers pockets and make politicians feel like they are in control.
If anything the Means test should be part of the Pre-BK education process and performed at that time for a verry nominal fee if any at all. $300~$400 is outrageous.

[DYLAN150]

I just paid $100 for the lawyer to look up my income on a chart and say "chapter 13". But he also answered a few questions too. Yes, I would most likely pay to find out what my chapter 13 payment would be!

[LadyInTheRed]

If I were filing pro se, I would consider it. But, it would depend on exactly what "certified" means. I would want there to be some kind of a guarantee of help if there are objections to the means test. Maybe a certain amount of consultation time included in the fee if there is an objection.

[HHM]

If I were filing pro se, I would consider it. But, it would depend on exactly what "certified" means. I would want there to be some kind of a guarantee of help if there are objections to the means test. Maybe a certain amount of consultation time included in the fee if there is an objection.

That would be the real rub, at that point, you are basically using an attorney to file BK.

[HHM]

People who are truely bankrupt especialy ch7 should not have to pay for anything. To me the Means test is a load of crap designed to line the Lawyers pockets and make politicians feel like they are in control.
If anything the Means test should be part of the Pre-BK education process and performed at that time for a verry nominal fee if any at all. $300~$400 is outrageous.

The problem, the means test is actually very legally complicated...if you read through this forum, the majority of questions relate to the means test, and the difference between districts and how a persons specific circumstances apply. Also, let's be candid, the people filing BK are NOT BROKE, they are just insolvent. Those are different things. But, I am not going to bait much further into this debate because it would be pointless, services are simply not free, someone pays.

The means test is really not just "plugging" in numbers (especially for borderline cases).

[shark66]

If I were filing a Ch. 7 and wanted to be certain that I'm not ending up in Ch. 13 instead, I'd gladly pay the fee.

In real life, however, this was the exact opposite of my situation. I knew where I was going and what it would take - at least for the most part - to get there...thanks to this very forum.

Good luck to us all.

[catleg]

It only makes sense if you are employed.
If you're unemployed, throughout the lookback period, it's a no brainer.
There are people who go 13 for tax issues and lien strips, they wouldn't care either.
So I think it's a small but substantial subset of cases that hang in the balance.
The question would be, what are you getting for the money.
A calculation or legal advice?

[BKAttyMI]

The reality is, the means test doesn't even really apply unless you are very borderline, in which case you should have an attorney representing you anyways. It seems odd that so much attention in this forum is directed at the dreaded "means test" when it usually isn't an issue at all.

If you need any sort of "certified" means test, you need an attorney.

[keepinitreal]

Yes, it's worth it.

We paid our attorney $600 to do the means test and to go over our ESOP (Employee Stock Ownership Plan) paperwork to determine that it was ERISA-qualified and we wouldn't lose it to the trustee.

We weren't filing if we we would be forced to go Chapter 13, and we were close depending on what was counted as income.

Our attorney was also a trustee who knew what would fly and what wouldn't, so once we knew we qualified for Chapter 7, we made the decision to file.

[Pandora]

What constitutes "certified" and what guarantee does it bring with it vs. just plugging the numbers in on one's own?

I guess the other question I'd have is are we talking about - complete look / run-down of schedules included in that or are we talking a simple quick run synopsis for presumed abuse, etc. Also final say is really the Trustee's, so for the $ spent, again what is the benefit of it?

[obamaloan]

Hey,

If I were filing pro se, I would consider it. I would want there to be some kind of a guarantee of help if there are objections to the means test.

[debtfreeindy]

If you accept the reality that many attorneys who hold themselves out as doing "bankruptcy" cannot and do not understand the means test, it should be a no-brainer that a pro-se filer should do all the homework, research and consultation possible to help ensure the case is successful. In Chapter 13, if you file and get it dismissed too many times, the court can put a minimum 180 day bar on refiling - which often gives creditors plenty of time to sue, garnish, levy bank accounts and non-exempt assets. Keep in mind, yes, it is situational to each case and some people don't need a lengthy means test analysis to determine if they can do Chapter 7 or what type of Chapter 13 repayment period. But, for over-median debtors, Form B22C analysis is absolutely crucial, and to pay an attorney for a proper analysis would most definitely be a good investment.

[justbroke]

HHM, I thought I responded to this before but here it goes.

My District is particularly worried about "ghost-writing". For those that don't know what ghost-writing is, that's where a pro se debtor has an attorney write their papers and even complete bankruptcy schedules (giving legal advice). However, the attorney never files an appearance and the court does not know that the pro se debtor's papers were prepared (and/or reviewed) by a member of the bar.

The Chapter 7 Trustee in my case handed ONLY pro se litigants a questionnaire which asked, amongst other things, if a paralegal, document preparer, or attorney helped with the paperwork. I know that they are particularly targeting "document preparers" that are "practicing" law, but they are also looking for other issues?

So much so that the Statement of Financial Affairs (SoFA) has an interesting question;

Official Form B7 -- Statement of Financial Affairs

9. Payments related to debt counseling or bankruptcy

List all payments made or property transferred by or on behalf of the debtor to any persons, including attorneys, for consultation concerning debt consolidation, relief under the bankruptcy law or preparation of a petition in bankruptcy within one year immediately preceding the commencement of this case.

So to actually answer your question... I would certainly have paid that amount for both my Chapter 13 and Chapter 7. However, I wonder how it would work if the debtor lists the attorney's assistance on the SoFA and what that would stir up?

[Snax]

No. Buy the Nolo guide instead!

The means test was too easy to fill out without an attorney's help, and the end result is open to an arbitrary interpretation by the Trustee anyway. I.e., we were over, but the case was convincing enough to handle as under, so the exact dollar amount was less relevant than the circumstances that produced the numbers (such as two 3-payday months and temporary overtime within the 6 month time frame).