Do you think that the general public considers us as "shysters"?

[IamOld]

I do like NZ - except that it is quite the social-democracy with universal health care, and Chile is slowly getting back there....

"Barry" is just clueless when it comes to "reality".

As a community organizer, he lived in a fantasy land, where people get their money for nothing and their chicks for free. As my good friend and former mailman once told me, the worst day of the month was when the welfare checks where issued in the neighborhood, because if that check was not there, there was hell to pay!

What a way to live, depending on the government for your well being!

Guess moving to New Zealand or Chile isn't a bad idea if you are young and single, especially if "Barry" fools everyone again with his "change".

[IamOld]

I think esp, that we cannot adopt the mindset that is now in vogue in this country that money motivates people above all else - that is our problem.

By the way, here are the states on the efficiency, outcomes, etc., of the health care systems of the OECD countries. From the horse's mouth so to speak. http://www.oecd.org/document/16/0,33..._1_1_1,00.html Go here and download the excel file. It's an eye-opener!

And yes, corporations used to care about "us," because the system at large encouraged that - encouraged the system of somewhat paternalistic employers, etc, and the country thrived. That is a fact - the US had unprecedented economic growth between 1945 through the early 80's.

Now, espo, true, my addiction to credit does play part for me being here - and I recognize that. I am and will always be a recovering credit addict - I know that. But yet had I and spouse not lost our jobs year before last and last year, and our new ones pay, together 60% of what we made before, we wouldn't be here. SO having said that - on the business side of my life, I'm quite good, and yes, that was a bit rude my friend. I actually teach how the world operates on the univ level, and my employers certainly pay me (not as much as before) for that same appreciation.

Remember, disagreement is not the same as disloyalty :-) But I would frankly even take the UK's NHS (which is NOT the best universal health care system) over the mess here.

By the way, Germans had universal health care since the mid 1880's!!!!

I just literally weep at the economic INTENTIONAL destruction I see around me, and remember that when I was a kid in the late 70's and early 80's we had it much better.

I am not going to get into a fact finding mission with you, but it you think the quality of HC is better in a universal system, you are missing some strong evidence.

Also, if you think doctors go into medicine for reasons other than money or job security, you live in a fantasy land.

Lastly, corporations only care about the bottom line. Why should they care about us? If they did business this way (cared only about us), they would not exist.

I am all for corporate accountability, but you also seem to lack any common sense on how the world actually operates.

Sorry if this is rude, but I don't agree with you at all.

[espo1357]

"Barry" is just clueless when it comes to "reality".

As a community organizer, he lived in a fantasy land, where people get their money for nothing and their chicks for free. As my good friend and former mailman once told me, the worst day of the month was when the welfare checks where issued in the neighborhood, because if that check was not there, there was hell to pay!

What a way to live, depending on the government for your well being!

Guess moving to New Zealand or Chile isn't a bad idea if you are young and single, especially if "Barry" fools everyone again with his "change".

[IamOld]

bcohen, bush lost about 3 mil jobs - it's not Obama v Bush here - it is the same corporatist system.

Haha. You're kidding, right? I assume you realize that this economic collapse was caused by corporations closing factories and offices here and moving the jobs to foreign countries--not irresponsible spending by the middle and lower classes. And with the politicians pandering to corporations to engineer a tax code that rewards companies for shipping our jobs overseas, this is a trend which will surely get worse for the foreseeable future!

We have lost even more jobs under 3 years of Obama than we did under 8 years of Bush, and those jobs are not coming back. So tell me again how that "hope and change" is working out for you, 'cause it's sure not working out for me!

[bcohen]

I couldn't agree less. Obama is the one man that is holding the tide against the economic royalists who are out to destroy the American Middle Class. He is the man who has delivered us to the promised land of universal health care. He is the man who is defending Social Security and Medicare against the forces of evil (Ryan.)

Haha. You're kidding, right? I assume you realize that this economic collapse was caused by corporations closing factories and offices here and moving the jobs to foreign countries--not irresponsible spending by the middle and lower classes. And with the politicians pandering to corporations to engineer a tax code that rewards companies for shipping our jobs overseas, this is a trend which will surely get worse for the foreseeable future!

We have lost even more jobs under 3 years of Obama than we did under 8 years of Bush, and those jobs are not coming back. So tell me again how that "hope and change" is working out for you, 'cause it's sure not working out for me!

[espo1357]

I'm sorry that is empricially not true espo - universal health care nations have BETTER outcomes for at least HALF of what the US spends per person - less infant mortality, longer lifespans, less chronic disease, etc etc etc. Sorry - our healthcare system is broken - it's unaffordable - it is the only one where people wind up here - in bk - because of it. Is any system perfect? No - but this one is horrendous.

Why would you become a dr...well, I truly truly hope it's NOT for the money - that is the WRONG reason to go into medicine, and frankly, that thinking is very...American these days. Having said that, no dr in Canada, or Germany, or the UK, drives, say, a used Kia, if you know what I mean.

Corporations are hoarding cash because Obama doesn't have the intestinal fortitude of FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, LBJ, JFK. They're hoarding cash because they do NOT CARE about us. PERIOD

And by the way - since when is "business" experience a requirement to run a GOVERNMENT which is NOT a business???? FDR was not a businessman - Hoover was. Eisenhower was not, etc etc

I am not going to get into a fact finding mission with you, but it you think the quality of HC is better in a universal system, you are missing some strong evidence.

Also, if you think doctors go into medicine for reasons other than money or job security, you live in a fantasy land.

Lastly, corporations only care about the bottom line. Why should they care about us? If they did business this way (cared only about us), they would not exist.

I am all for corporate accountability, but you also seem to lack any common sense on how the world actually operates.

Sorry if this is rude, but I don't agree with you at all.

[IamOld]

I'm sorry that is empricially not true espo - universal health care nations have BETTER outcomes for at least HALF of what the US spends per person - less infant mortality, longer lifespans, less chronic disease, etc etc etc. Sorry - our healthcare system is broken - it's unaffordable - it is the only one where people wind up here - in bk - because of it. Is any system perfect? No - but this one is horrendous.

Why would you become a dr...well, I truly truly hope it's NOT for the money - that is the WRONG reason to go into medicine, and frankly, that thinking is very...American these days. Having said that, no dr in Canada, or Germany, or the UK, drives, say, a used Kia, if you know what I mean.

Corporations are hoarding cash because Obama doesn't have the intestinal fortitude of FDR, Truman, Eisenhower, LBJ, JFK. They're hoarding cash because they do NOT CARE about us. PERIOD

And by the way - since when is "business" experience a requirement to run a GOVERNMENT which is NOT a business???? FDR was not a businessman - Hoover was. Eisenhower was not, etc etc

You have to be kidding.

Universal Healthcare does more harm than good, especially since it waters down the quality of healthcare. Where is the incentive for people to go to school and study medicine when they have little incentive when they graduate? And why should it be required for everyone to have insurance? Its BS.

Another thing: Corporations are holding 2-3 trillion in cash because they have no clue what Obama is going to do next, with his endless regulations and flip flops (see Steve Wynn, a Wharton grad and a man who is probably the most influential person in the history of Nevada).

Obama is a flip flop, community organizer, with no business experience, a typical politician with nothing to offer but false hope and lies.

[espo1357]

I couldn't agree less. Obama is the one man that is holding the tide against the economic royalists who are out to destroy the American Middle Class. He is the man who has delivered us to the promised land of universal health care. He is the man who is defending Social Security and Medicare against the forces of evil (Ryan.)

You have to be kidding.

Universal Healthcare does more harm than good, especially since it waters down the quality of healthcare. Where is the incentive for people to go to school and study medicine when they have little incentive when they graduate? And why should it be required for everyone to have insurance? Its BS.

Another thing: Corporations are holding 2-3 trillion in cash because they have no clue what Obama is going to do next, with his endless regulations and flip flops (see Steve Wynn, a Wharton grad and a man who is probably the most influential person in the history of Nevada).

Obama is a flip flop, community organizer, with no business experience, a typical politician with nothing to offer but false hope and lies.

[JackBondLove]

He has fooled so many. and if he wins again, wow...

we are going to be set up for lots of pain in the next 20-30 years.

then again, all the politicans threw us under the bus.

I couldn't agree less. Obama is the one man that is holding the tide against the economic royalists who are out to destroy the American Middle Class. He is the man who has delivered us to the promised land of universal health care. He is the man who is defending Social Security and Medicare against the forces of evil (Ryan.)

[IamOld]

HI Discouraged - the pres' salary is a pittance compared to everything else, especially sending jobs overseas, spending on...well...let me just say it...wars...banksters, etc.

Obama didn't fight for those who elected him - you can't win in politics by not fighting for what you believe in (that's not a partisan saying, by the way)

[discouraged]

One of the things I've though but never said was, When all this was going on, what were Michelle and Barak doing taking all those trips oversease??? If congress would decrease their salaries, if the rich were taxed appropriately, if social service charities - fighting to get some help, were given that help, if there really was some sort of job creation, we could have gotten out of this.

When the bill came that the unemployed could still stay in their homes, it was already to late for me to apply for it. (Although BofA is not doing anything about the mortgage yet, which allows me to still stay here)

I seriously doubt if Obama will win again, mainly because he has ticked off the republis. Guess we'll ahve to see.

[espo1357]

I wouldn't be surprised if all of these negative comments are genuine. Until recently I had hard time getting my head around the idea that I should BK rather than try to work it out somehow although that somehow would just lead me down to a road with little chance of success even though I'm probably in a much better position to BK than most. Much of the public, me included, were brainwashed at a young age that because we have a higher moral standard we should never break the rules or even play by the rules when there is a hint that we may be receiving an unfair advantage. Some people even take this reasoning to the extreme by not reporting their charitable donations to the IRS. As a result we go through life pigeonholing ourselves in the most disadvantageous positions in work, relationships, taxes, and other finances.

This may sound a little crazy to some but I say let's play by the rules but to the best of our advantage, and let's not ever feel bad about doing so. Otherwise, how will you every do anything really productive in life? I'm talking about outside of BK as well. Start being ambitious and recognizing your God given strengths, and using them to do great things for you, your family, and everyone you touch and feel good about that instead. Because really we are all freaking geniuses at whatever we focus on, its just that some of us are geniuses at stupid things like blame, guilt, shame, and using rules to our disadvantage when we could be spending that energy in love, resourcefulness, and positively impacting our lives and every life we have the privilege of touching.

I've been thinking about discharging since I joined and started lurking this forum and finally i'm going to press the button.

ya, the rich play by different rules than others. do as they say, and not as they do.

To believe that I used to think that wall street executives were actually super smart. Sure, they have above average intelligence, but they are more crooked than smart.

[uuwwee]

I wouldn't be surprised if all of these negative comments are genuine. Until recently I had hard time getting my head around the idea that I should BK rather than try to work it out somehow although that somehow would just lead me down to a road with little chance of success even though I'm probably in a much better position to BK than most. Much of the public, me included, were brainwashed at a young age that because we have a higher moral standard we should never break the rules or even play by the rules when there is a hint that we may be receiving an unfair advantage. Some people even take this reasoning to the extreme by not reporting their charitable donations to the IRS. As a result we go through life pigeonholing ourselves in the most disadvantageous positions in work, relationships, taxes, and other finances.

This may sound a little crazy to some but I say let's play by the rules but to the best of our advantage, and let's not ever feel bad about doing so. Otherwise, how will you every do anything really productive in life? I'm talking about outside of BK as well. Start being ambitious and recognizing your God given strengths, and using them to do great things for you, your family, and everyone you touch and feel good about that instead. Because really we are all freaking geniuses at whatever we focus on, its just that some of us are geniuses at stupid things like blame, guilt, shame, and using rules to our disadvantage when we could be spending that energy in love, resourcefulness, and positively impacting our lives and every life we have the privilege of touching.

I've been thinking about discharging since I joined and started lurking this forum and finally i'm going to press the button.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Wow, I thought the dictator you were talking about was none other than Barrack Obama!

I am.

He has fooled so many. and if he wins again, wow...

we are going to be set up for lots of pain in the next 20-30 years.

then again, all the politicans threw us under the bus.

The dumbing down of our Nation started with Lyndon Johnson's Great Society. It was he who in his office told one of his cabinet members that if he was given the power to put his Great Society into use, he would guarantee a voting block to the Dem's forever. He was given that power and purchased through "entitlements" the Black American block. Yet during most of the havoc of Dr. Martin Luther King's struggle it was the Democratic party subordinates who fought against lifting segregation. The axe handle wielding restauranteer Lester Maddox who became the 75th Georgia governor and George Wallace who was the 45th governor of Alabama. Both were Democrats. At that time, the South was heavy Democrat. The North was Republican except far Northeast.

Lincoln was a Republican.

At the time of the Great Society, the school system stopped teaching history, geography, civics. We also taught Americanism VS Communism. Math was taught without the aid of calculators and typing was taught without the aid of a spell checker.

I don't blame teachers. I blame the teaching system. The parents of today's kids were indoctrinated a long time ago. Far after the schools that the Principle's paddle of bad acting, removed from use.

Our teachers in most cases are warehousing children and do not have time to teach a child. It is not their fault to be told "YOU WILL TEACH GAYNESS THEORY" or you get 45 children this semester. That is government edict and yes, I do believe the Department of Education should be removed and the schools put back to the States as once they were. My wife is a teacher as well as a Historian and Librarian. How many books are read by children? How many by adults? How many books now read themselves to people with items like Kindles.

Yes, I believe our society has been molded into worker ants, soldier ants, and queen ants who reside in Washington D.C..

Those who ignore History are condemned to repeat it. Heil Bamma!!! In schools teacher leads children's songs "Barack Housein Obama, emmm, emmm, emmm".

My opinion, so far, I have a right to speak it. So far. 'Hub

[espo1357]

Wow, I thought the dictator you were talking about was none other than Barrack Obama!

He has fooled so many. and if he wins again, wow...

we are going to be set up for lots of pain in the next 20-30 years.

then again, all the politicans threw us under the bus.