Health Insurance Discussion

[IBroke]

So I'm to understand that because they are working for less than some Americans will work for it's okay to skirt the law? Which other laws do you propose we ignore?

The unemployment rate is near 17% in this country. In some areas of agricultural California the rate in much higher. Are you trying to make me believe that Americans who are unemployed won't do the work the illegals do? I got an idea. Stop paying unemployment benefits and see how many Americans are willing to pick lettuce.

Anyone who accepts the premise that illegals are here to stay because there are too many or because they provide a valued service has no respect for our nation's laws.

I'm not saying it's OK - I'm just describing the "AS IS"-status and that it will probably stay that way. We all know it's wrong - but please tell me why nobody is fighting it? I tell you why: Because we - as a society - take advantage of them just as they do take advantage of us. It's a give and take. The "action" and so-called "border-patrols" are a joke itself. They should only DISPLAY to the public that this country is fighting illegal immigration. What a joke. If this topic would be important and would actually cause damages to our economy, don't you think we would be more involved?

Illegals are doing the work American citizens aren't keen on doing, at a rate American citizens couldn't survive on, allowing American companies to offer their products and services at competative prices and as a result, allowing American consumers to get these products cheaper. And why is this done? Because it's working. It's a win-win situation for many people involved and THAT'S why the government stays away from that issue.

If you want to have them out of the country by tomorrow, you will have to face the CONSEQUENCES.

Did it ever came to your mind that there are TWO SIDES of this story? Why can illegals work in this country in the first place? Because they are HIRED by companies who violate the law. Now WHY are they hired if it's illegal?

Back to the lettuce...:
The companies hiring illegals have only one thing in mind - and that's called PROFIT. True, we have millions of unemployed in this country but they simply won't and can't do the work at the same wage. That's an economical fact. And do you know what's going to happen once these jobs are performed by legal residents who are paid in such way that they can support their families - here in THIS country?

We will pay TWICE as much for the lettuce - because the companies are still going to get their profits.

I know that those people who have illegal aliens on top of their agenda also kling to their hard earned money - So be careful what you wish for. In this case, you can't have it both ways.

Your "Sledgehammer-All illegals out today" might work in a fantasy fairy-land - but NOT in REALITY.

[OhioFiler]

This country depends on them. So "let's get them all out by yersterday" simply doesn't work. Sad but if we take advantage of them by paying far less for jobs legal citizens wouldn't even consider for that hourly wage, we can't complain they are still here...

Somebody has to hire them and is making a profit, right?

So I'm to understand that because they are working for less than some Americans will work for it's okay to skirt the law? Which other laws do you propose we ignore?

The unemployment rate is near 17% in this country. In some areas of agricultural California the rate in much higher. Are you trying to make me believe that Americans who are unemployed won't do the work the illegals do? I got an idea. Stop paying unemployment benefits and see how many Americans are willing to pick lettuce.

Anyone who accepts the premise that illegals are here to stay because there are too many or because they provide a valued service has no respect for our nation's laws.

[hereforinfo]

No they don't have to pay taxes through identity theft. Their employer has to withhold taxes. So they are paying in - federal and state and soc. sec and medicare. Now because they are illegal, they don't dare file a tax return because that is when they would be discovered.
So they don't get those refunds that legal workers making those wages would get.

Yeah, they don't make a great deal of income because they are doing jobs that most other people aren't willing to do.

That said, I do think people should come into this country legally. It's almost a separate issue from healthcare. If they get they get documented, it's not an issue. And I do see where it might be an incentive for them to do so if they are excluded from the system.

I just think it's a lie that "they get everything for free". And it's easy to make them a scapegoat.

Their employer can only withhold and pay taxes if they have a social security number. If that's the case the income is being reported to the IRS, they would have to file a return at some point. Unless their income is below the threshold, in which case they wouldn't have to pay taxes on it anyway. If they don't have a social security number, then they are paid under the table and there is no tax paid or withheld.

[IBroke]

I find it bemusing that we can carry on a discussion about ILLEGAL aliens and never address the concept of removing them.

This country depends on them. So "let's get them all out by yersterday" simply doesn't work. Sad but if we take advantage of them by paying far less for jobs legal citizens wouldn't even consider for that hourly wage, we can't complain they are still here...

Somebody has to hire them and is making a profit, right?

[TooMuchCredit]

If 2/3 pay income taxes, they're doing it through identity theft. On top of that, they are in the lowest tax bracket and after standard deductions, EIC, child credits, etc. they end up paying ZERO federal income tax and actually get a refund just like any low income worker. That means our tax dollars are actually paying them. The fact that they pay sales tax to the state they live in means nothing to me in another state, as their minimal contribution wouldn't even cover the local services they receive, let alone any of the burden they place on our federal tax system.

No they don't have to pay taxes through identity theft. Their employer has to withhold taxes. So they are paying in - federal and state and soc. sec and medicare. Now because they are illegal, they don't dare file a tax return because that is when they would be discovered.
So they don't get those refunds that legal workers making those wages would get.

Yeah, they don't make a great deal of income because they are doing jobs that most other people aren't willing to do.

That said, I do think people should come into this country legally. It's almost a separate issue from healthcare. If they get they get documented, it's not an issue. And I do see where it might be an incentive for them to do so if they are excluded from the system.

I just think it's a lie that "they get everything for free". And it's easy to make them a scapegoat.

[hereforinfo]

It's easy to make a group of people scapegoats. Illegals don't get things for free, they pay taxes too - sales, property (renters pay it too via their landlord), and I have seen mention that 2/3 actually pay income taxes. If you have a job, you automatically have fed/state/FICA/Medicare taxes withheld. You have to remember too that most of these people aren't in high paying jobs so their contribution in income tax even if all were paying would be low.

If 2/3 pay income taxes, they're doing it through identity theft. On top of that, they are in the lowest tax bracket and after standard deductions, EIC, child credits, etc. they end up paying ZERO federal income tax and actually get a refund just like any low income worker. That means our tax dollars are actually paying them. The fact that they pay sales tax to the state they live in means nothing to me in another state, as their minimal contribution wouldn't even cover the local services they receive, let alone any of the burden they place on our federal tax system.

[OhioFiler]

I find it bemusing that we can carry on a discussion about ILLEGAL aliens and never address the concept of removing them. It's as though we've accepted them ans the law means nothing.

Here's my plan for health care for illegals. If they are sick, treat them in a prison hospital.

[JRScott]

Illegals do not pay the same share of taxes as you and I do, and it is that shortfall in tax revenue that has in a large part caused CA crisis. Their schools are overrun, their emergency rooms, their health care system in general. While the shortfall caused by illegals avoiding certain state taxes might not completely bring CA back to the black it is clear currently it is a major contributing factor to the state being in the red.

[TooMuchCredit]

It is the strain of illegal aliens that has led to California's budget crisis. It's also why we need to move away from income taxes which are avoided by many illegals and move towards a consumption tax.

Illegals did not cause the crisis in CA.

http://dist22.casen.govoffice.com/index.asp?Type=B_PR&SEC=%7B0A2790CD-E2A0-4AD1-ADCC-79E9FBBF6544%7D&DE=%7BA6300478-5E2B-458D-88A5-D72C2DBE9E6D%7D

It's easy to make a group of people scapegoats. Illegals don't get things for free, they pay taxes too - sales, property (renters pay it too via their landlord), and I have seen mention that 2/3 actually pay income taxes. If you have a job, you automatically have fed/state/FICA/Medicare taxes withheld. You have to remember too that most of these people aren't in high paying jobs so their contribution in income tax even if all were paying would be low.

[JRScott]

There is no enforcement in the bill of that section which means it would never be enforced. There is no requirement to show ID, prove citizenship etc. It was only after Rep Wilson said You Lie did Sen Baucus panel close the loophole.

Also you are quoting one passage which has no enforcement from one bill. None of the other bills out of committee have that passage or any enforcement. So ultimately since only 1/4 of the bills have it what makes you think it would be in the final bill.

Rep. Wilson should not have interrupted the President, but at the same time what he said was true. The problem is the President has no idea what he's peddling, he has yet to read the bills which is largely why he's ineffective in selling it.

If we'd just close the border you know 8 years after 9/11 it remains very porous, then it would be a non issue as there would be no illegal aliens. It is the strain of illegal aliens that has led to California's budget crisis. It's also why we need to move away from income taxes which are avoided by many illegals and move towards a consumption tax.

[IBroke]

Actually Rep Wilson was correct. None of the bills out of committee would prevent illegal aliens from getting coverage. One bill had said that they could not but then the CBO warned that there was no enforcement measure in that bill either such that it was likely that it would occur.

Well, after Obama said: "The REFORMS I'm proposing would not apply for those who are here illegally" and taking into consideration that section 246 clearly pointed out at least the intention to exclude illegals from the HP, I don't think it's appropriate to accuse the President of lying. He didn't say: "Under the reforms I'm proposing, it's IMPOSSIBLE for illegal aliens to obtain insurance."

There's a difference between "prevent" and "apply". For Rep Wilson's accusation, this difference is crucial. Before I'm accusing the President of lying - in front of Congress - I have to be VERY careful. If the final bill would include that specific section, it wouldn't be the intention under the HP to cover illegals - in fact, the BILL doesn't apply to illegals. The enforcement is another question - I agree. But that doesn't mean Obama is a liar.

And as I said, even IF they could obtain insurance but would have to pay for it just like anybody else, what's the big deal? Is this a "deal-breaker"? Do I have to shout out load in front of Congress and act like a monkey? For what?

BTW, illegals also purchase food in this country, so next time I go to a fast-food restaurant, I rather take my passport.

[justbroke]

IBroke, it's the ugliness of politics. In my business, we tell the client that they don't want us to see us making the sausage. It's not a pretty process. Hopefully, what comes out in the end, is a great product.

Unfortunately, I don't think politics works the same way. They are making sausage, and it still doesn't come out good in the end.

[IBroke]

Hence is why the comment Bachaus made about anyone can purchase insurance, makes sense. However, the question was turned on "will illegals receive the benefit of these Government programs". If they purchase the insurance, yes, they would receive the benefit. But, if they purchase it, they are spending money for it.

This is a perfect example why so many people are frustrated. Another discussion about an issue of the HP that is totally irrelevant but still used for politicial tactics. For God's sake, this country should discuss the MAIN aspects of this HP and not this nonsense.

The most important question should be the funding. A HP that is set-up correctly should actually benefit from a higher number of insured individuals.

[justbroke]

Fact is: No MONEY will be spent to cover illegals - and THAT'S all that matters to me.

Hence is why the comment Bachaus made about anyone can purchase insurance, makes sense. However, the question was turned on "will illegals receive the benefit of these Government programs". If they purchase the insurance, yes, they would receive the benefit. But, if they purchase it, they are spending money for it.

[JRScott]

Obama said: "The REFORMS I'm proposing would not apply for those who are here illegally."

What you just explained only shows the stupidity of this entire topic: If you want to obtain insurance RIGHT NOW, do they check if you are here legally? No? So what's the deal? If this is a problem for Republicans, why didn't they fix it? I don't want to be required to show my passport at every visit to the doctor just to make sure such an illegal can't PURCHASE (which, btw, means, he's going to PAY for it) insurance.

How about asking for a passport when buying stamps at the post-office? Could be an illegal, right? That's just plain stupid!

Fact is: No MONEY will be spent to cover illegals - and THAT'S all that matters to me.

Actually Rep Wilson was correct. None of the bills out of committee would prevent illegal aliens from getting coverage. One bill had said that they could not but then the CBO warned that there was no enforcement measure in that bill either such that it was likely that it would occur.

Sen. Baucus and his group worked to close that loophole in their bill which is still in committee after Rep. Wilson's comment.