Health Insurance Discussion

[nc73]

I thought even once the healthcare bill passes (well if it passes) it will be another 3 years before it goes into affect. How will this help with the economy NOW?? It will be all over after 3 years.

[lrprn]

Nice job repeating the standard extremist talking points, Pizza.

Now instead of just repeating what hasn't been proven but is being loudly shouted at every opportunity to scare and confuse people, how about actually reading the current Finance Committee Senate bill at http://help.senate.gov/BAI09A84_xml.pdf and the current House healthcare reform bill at http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf for yourself?

Then come back and tell me where it says any of what you just posted about illegal immigrants being covered, etc. in either of them. You aren't going to find any of it because it doesn't exist.

This is yet one more example of escalating fearful, "just say no" exaggerations and lies with the hidden purpose of stopping true healthcare reform which will significantly cut into insurance and pharma profits. Why do you think so much money is being spent by their lobbies to stop healthcare reform?

It's sad that so many millions of Americans seem to have lost the ability to seek out the facts for themselves and make independent decisions for ourselves using those facts. Instead we've grown overly dependent on biased, well-funded news and other sources to do the hard work of a true democracy for us. We react emotionally to a message designed specifically to evoke emotional reactions so we won't start looking in an objective way at the facts.

Now it's all about the message 'spin' to fan the rhetoric flames ever higher and about "winning" at all costs no matter how many people are hurt along the way.

It appears that due to the polarization and splintering encouraged/demanded by many factions in this country, we may have lost the ability to solve hard problems facing our country. Definitely not what our Founding Fathers had in mind.

[Pizza]

NO Obamacare!

If provided as an extension of Medicare (which is rapidly failing), any government sponsored healthcare program would likely be tied to the poverty line, which is so low that in order to qualify for Medicare, you're probably feeding your kids cheese and crackers and living with your relatives.

The runaway inflation has not been considered in the poverty line, either. Take someone who went from making $60,000 a year before the recession and having company-sponsored health insurance who was laid off and now was "lucky" enough to find a job earning $30,000 a year (before taxes), roughly double to triple the poverty level. Add in the cost of daycare, gas and parking (if applicable) just to get to work, then housing, utilities, food, etc. and then they're having to debate between basic needs and health insurance.

A government manadate should include government assistance, and I mean REAL assistance, not just for lazy welfare moms and illegal immigrants, but for people trying and failing to keep up with the basic costs of living. This would be very costly and add at least billions, probably trillions more to our deficits, furthering inflation to the point that the cost of the efforts cancel out their benefits.

The only way I could ever support a fine for not obtaining insurance would be if it were subsidized in a way that everyone can afford to do so, with the exception of illegal immigrants... they shouldn't qualify and when hit with the fines would probably go back to where they came from. I don't see how this can be done. Rewind ten years or more and maybe it could have been. I think at this point we're screwed.

[lrprn]

Iprn sooner or later you and those like you will stop taking people like me out of context.

If you can't defend every sentence that you post, then please think twice about what you are posting and how you are stating it.

Of course human life is far more important then money!

I'm glad to hear you say that. It is.

If I was the one in charge I would see to it that the failures would fail....

If I was the one in charge, I would see to it that everyone who wanted to succeed had an equal opportunity to succeed. Currently that doesn't exist in this country, if it ever did.

...jobs would be created...

The billions given over by Congress at the request of both Bush and Obama were to prop up the rapidly crashing economy and to save as many jobs as possible. The job loss rates would be even higher by now without the stimulus.

Both presidents did put the economy first because it impacts the entire country (actually the entire world) and every single American citizen directly. Now it's time to fix healthcare, because it's a major driver of why full economic recovery may be a long time coming, even be impossible for many Americans.

...the American dream which seems to by dying...

Ask yourself why it's dying. You have to personally and deeply question simplistic talking points by the extreme right and left of both political parties, conservatives, libertarians, and progressives.

Our American dream is dying primarily because the majority of American people on all levels and classes sold their souls to money and acquiring 'stuff' they didn't really need to artifically prop up a hyper-capitalistic anomaly of an economy so company shareholders would get their regularly increasing profits. Sure was fun for a lot of very rich folks who got even more obscenely richer. Only problem was that when too many spiraled out of control with unrestrained and selfish greed they over-reached, crashed the country's economy, and dragged the middle and lower classes down with them.

...with all the working Americans producing and having AFFORDABLE health plans so we can get the care we need and deserve.

We are both in 100% agreement about this. Nice to find some common ground between us.

What kind of kaos do you think we are going to have if we don't fix these "money" problems first!!!!????

Our congress has artifically propped up our economy with two stimulus boosts of billions of dollars over the last year. It's the primary reason we are slowly, slowly recovering.

Now it's time to turn to fixing healthcare, because if we don't reform it now, healthcare spending alone will be the reason thousands of jobs will be lost. "Without health care reform, small businesses will pay nearly $2.4 trillion dollars over the next ten years in health care costs for their workers, 178,000 small business jobs will be lost by 2018 as a result of health care costs, $834 billion in small business wages will be lost due to high health care costs over the next ten years, small businesses will lose $52.1 billion in profits to high health care costs and 1.6 million small business workers will suffer “job lock“— roughly one in 16 people currently insured by their employers." (http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml)

This is a economic catastrophe that will affect millions of citizens. This is why healthcare reform needs to happen now, not later.

Also remember Hitler and lowlife scum like him were byproducts of economic colapse. Far more people got sick and died because "money" wasn't an important enough issue back then either.

Our American society, our current struggling economy, and our politicians today are nothing like the Third Reich. We don't match up at all with Germany's financial and cultural state in the early 1930s. Read up on your history before starting to throw around dire Hitler statements. 'Hitler' and 'Nazis' are a prop used by both extreme political sides when legitimate defenses for a belief have run out of gas. You can do better.

Good intentions are good for nothing.

To achieve a goal, one must first think through how to achieve that goal. If thinking is all that's accomplished and no actions follow, then you're right - those intentions were a complete waste of time and energy.

However, just as bad are knee-jerk actions done without understanding first what the short- and long-term consequences of those actions or non-actions may be.

I believe our Congress understands that something has to change in healthcare, but due to the tight embrace of rigid and inflexible ideologies by some on both sides, intense fear of not being re-elected by others, and because far too many have become a tool of the insurance and pharmaceutical industries through their lobbying machine and high dollar contributions to re-election campaigns, a large portion of our Congressional representatives are now unwilling to participate in getting the healthcare reform job done.

This isn't a case of good intentions failing to produce results. This is a significant number of representatives and senators placing themselves above the people they represent. They have chosen to ignore the majority of their constituents' desire to improve every American citizen's life by improving their healthcare now. And I hope that we, the American voters, vote every single one of those unwilling to participate in this reform effort out of office on the next election cycles for non-performance of the job we elected them to do.

[banca rotta]

Iprn sooner or later you and those like you will stop taking people like me out of context.

Of course human life is far more important then money!

If I was the one in charge I would see to it that the failures would fail the hard workers would succeed, jobs would be created, as posted here the American dream which seems to by dying would return and with all the working Americans producing and having AFFORDABLE health plans so we can get the care we need and deserve.

What kind of kaos do you think we are going to have if we don't fix these "money" problems first!!!!????

http://history1900s.about.com/od/photographs/tp/greatdepressionpictures.htm

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/03/scenes_from_the_recession.html

We must focus on fixing these problems first. If not what difference will anything else make?

Also remember Hitler and lowlife scum like him were byproducts of economic colapse. Far more people got sick and died because "money" wasn't an important enough issue back then either.

Good intentions are good for nothing.

[lrprn]

Just another impediment to economic growth.

So what you are saying is that making money is more important to you than directing any of that money to provide basic healthcare for every citizen instead. Wow. Truly I'm speechless seeing a fellow human being openly exhibit that much indifference to real human suffering that can be prevented.

I've already said what I wanted to say to you last night - could you stand by the way I do as a nurse and watch innocent adults and children suffer and sometimes die right in front of your eyes for no reason other than they had no health insurance, had their insurance cancelled by their insurance company when they became seriously ill, were underinsured and can't pay their huge $$$ co-pays, who already used up all their savings, emptied their retirement accounts, and borrowed every dime they could trying to pay for necessary care, or were already overwhelmed with huge medical bills they can't pay and their insurance has capped out? Would you still be able to say after experiencing that over and over with increasing frequency for years that making ever more money no matter what is more important than providing the most basic of healthcare for your fellow American citizens?

I noticed you didn't respond to what I posted yesterday. Here's your second chance, banca rotta - http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.ph...451#post333451

[banca rotta]

It's been done and it CAN be done. Politicians get paid for not voting FOR a government option. Don't you all want coverage for when you are jobless or too poor to afford coverage??? Only reason I'm moving back is family. Gonna miss NHS!

I would rather not be jobless!!!!! I would also rather the current jobless folks going through difficult times as I write this also not be jobless!!!!!

This healthcare reform bill is only adding to all the pain right now. Agree or not, it is what it is. Just another impediment to economic growth.

Have a safe trip home!

[nc73]

I get it! You cannot have it both ways!!!! Of course we can all have free govt health insurance.

We will also be the land of opportunity, NO MORE.

Someone has to pay for this no matter what and what's left of the middle class and the job creating small businesses will bear the brunt.

It's been done and it CAN be done. Politicians get paid for not voting FOR a government option. Don't you all want coverage for when you are jobless or too poor to afford coverage??? Only reason I'm moving back is family. Gonna miss NHS!

[hereforinfo]

It is true that medical tourism is increasing due to the rising cost of healthcare here. However, it's not just the U.S that is seeing this trend. Medical tourism is increasing just as much or more in places like Canada and the U.K. due to their long waiting lists.

I wonder what percentage of those who travel abroad for medical procedures are doing so for cosmetic surgery, alternative medicine, and procedures that haven't yet been approved here in the U.S.?

I think we all agree that our healthcare system needs to be fixed, we just don't think the currently proposed "solution" is the right way to go about it.

[lrprn]

I don't buy what the rest of the world has is better otherwise so many people wouldn't be lining up to come here.

A tiny number of people come into the US and stay solely for our healthcare. By far, legal and illegal immigrants come to the US because they believe they can make significantly more money and have more personal freedoms here than they can in their home country.

Using your one-way-immigration-swinging-door-into-the-US argument, how do you account for the fact that thousands and thousands of Americans are now traveling to foreign countries for their less-expensive but equally high-quality healthcare? Read up on the ever-increasing numbers of US 'medical tourists' at http://www.health-tourism.com/medica...sm/statistics/ . "In 2008, it is estimated that approximately 1.3 million Americans traveled abroad to seek healthcare and this figure is expected to double by 2010." Do you really think these millions of citizens would go abroad if their healthcare was affordable here?

I always ask, if it's so better elsewhere why not just move there???

By your argument, do you really believe that every one of these million US citizens should "move there" to a foreign country because they are seeking affordable, high-quality healthcare outside the US?

Instead I see increasing medical tourism as a symptom of the rapidly crashing healthcare system here in the States. We do have excellent healthcare in the US.....BUT ONLY IF YOU CAN PAY FOR IT.

According to the neutral World Health Organization in 2000, overall the United States ranks 37th (yes, 37th) in the world for the healthcare provided to all its citizens - see http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html . The only measure where the US is highly ranked is Total Health Expenditures - we're #2. (Only the Marshall Islands spends more than we do as % of GNP - by 0.2%.) Otherwise we are far below other first world countries in every other measure.

This is not sustainable. Healthcare reform is not about ideology. It's about real people who are dying every day because they do not have even the most basic healthcare because they cannot afford it. It's easy to say people should just "buck up" or "earn their healthcare like I did" when you aren't there on the healthcare front lines watching unfortunate people who have no health insurance, are underinsured, or are simply overwhelmed by huge medical bills they cannot afford to pay suffer and even die. I get that 'privilege' every day I work as a nurse.

How about you, banca rotta? Do you think you could stand there and watch someone suffer in terrible pain and eventually die solely because they can't afford even basic medical care? This is why 63% of physicians (http://www.rwjf.org/newsroom/product.jsp?id=48428) and both major US nursing professional organizations (http://www.nursezone.com/Nursing-New...orm_32532.aspx) support healthcare reform because we have been watching the wheels come off the US healthcare bus in horrible ways every single day for years. And it's getting worse every month, every year that passes.

Exactly when did a significant group of citizens in this country decide that money was more important than the basic health of their fellow citizens? When are the citizens in this country going to say "ENOUGH!" and force their congressional representatives to vote for what the majority of people in this country want - true healthcare reform?

[banca rotta]

I don't buy what the rest of the world has is better otherwise so many people wouldn't be lining up to come here.

This is human nature. Everyone will follow the money. For better or worse lots of people around the globe will kill or die to come to America more then they want to go to the countries you describe.

If we are so bad we wouldn't have the current immigration problem we have.

I'm not implying anyone that doesn't agree with me should "please leave my country" but I always ask, if it's so better elsewhere why not just move there??? If I loved another country better then here I would leave but that's me.

[TooMuchCredit]

I get it! You cannot have it both ways!!!! Of course we can all have free govt health insurance.

We will also be the land of opportunity, NO MORE.

Someone has to pay for this no matter what and what's left of the middle class and the job creating small businesses will bear the brunt.

Ever been to Europe, Japan, Australia or New Zealand? They have universal coverage. They also have plenty of small business. This whole doom and gloom of "socialized" medicine is just a scare tactic. There will be just as much opportunity and freedom with it as without it.

[banca rotta]

I still can't believe most people are happy with their current plan. I don't see how paying 20% of the bill and copays would make people happy. When I had insurance in the states it was nothing but costly. I really don't get it...

I get it! You cannot have it both ways!!!! Of course we can all have free govt health insurance.

We will also be the land of opportunity, NO MORE.

Someone has to pay for this no matter what and what's left of the middle class and the job creating small businesses will bear the brunt.

[nc73]

I still can't believe most people are happy with their current plan. I don't see how paying 20% of the bill and copays would make people happy. When I had insurance in the states it was nothing but costly. I really don't get it...

[momisery]

Coming in to work this morning I heard there was an independant study done on where we would be in 10 years if we remain the same. In 10 years time 21% more people will be without healthcare coverage. Any questions on why we need big changes? If you consider that, and then consider the last time we went thru this and they blasted the air waives with George and Martha or what ever their names were, big insurance and big healthcare repeatedly told congress they would monitor the costs themselves and keep them down. So, going forward we are okay with the last 10 years increase and are looking forward to the next 10 years with NO CHANGES.. geesh.