Political Discussion

[Xue]

[OHBOY]

No, it is a fictional example of atypical human behavior. Once the class realized that if no one studied, they would all fail, the group would start to work for passing grades for everyone. The A students would take on more of the load to preserve the class grade, even if they had to settle for a B average for everyone. The A students would be smart enough to not resort to envy and hatred of the slackers, since it would not be in their own self interest to allow the class to fail.

The assumption that everyone would just give up and fail is not human behavior - communities would never thrive with that attitude. It may be the conservatives view of the world that everyone is on their own and there should be no group effort to succeed, since helping others is foolish. How would a conservative ever do military service with that attitude?

I think my example of the Experiment in Capitalism is more relevant to what is happening in the US today.

Well, I strongly disagree...Please allow me to offer my own life experience and subsequent lesson:
In third grade my teacher (in Germany) gave out little paste ons as reward for especially good school performance. I loved those, and found them enticing enough to strive to give it my 'all' to be able to get another 'goody'.

I worked hard after school, and turned in what I knew was far superior to anybody elses homework assignment. However, the paste-on did not go to me but to the teachers 'pet', in a matter of fact I was told that I did not (supposently could not...) have possibly drawn the drawing I turned in.

Sooo.... ticked off, I stopped performing...and consequently ended up with a report card that noted: 'xxxx will only perform if allowed to expect reward and recognition'
...needless to say, it was not viewed as an attribute, but instead as quite a negative...

It was not until I was about 30 years old that I finally realized that what had been viewed as a negative is actually a positive, and striving to accomplish in order to achive for reward and recognition is a desirable trait in order to fullfill goals and to be most productive.
And.....as an immigrant (legal) to the US I was indeed able to be quite productive and successful in a capitalist environment.

Unfortunally I have seen many undesirable changes in the US. For one, it used to be that one could proudly proclaim to be an American, no matter which part of the world.
Today, one most likely will want to be quiet about revealing that little 'tidbit'.......actually today, when visiting countries abroad, very often I feel like the little stepchild, or more as though I just freshly came from the former E. Germany...

With my experience from the 3rd grade I hope to be able to demonstrate that taking incentives away is to destroy the motivation to strive.

I don't believe 'sharing the wealth' is a good thing.

I believe that an 'almighty' government is not only to be feared, but dangerous, and I believe in the importance to fight government controls that limit the ingenuities of the individual.

I strongly believe in the right to bear arms, if for no other reason than to keep an overbearing government in check...

I don't believe in things like 'means testing' (i.e) for SS, as again it makes one think of how productive one should be...after all going 'over the limit' just by a tad, could put one into a different tax bracket....sooo, instead of rewarding possibly a life of productivity it penalizes a hard working citizen...

Having grown up with a routine of going into a doctors office and unrobing down to 'split naked' versa being offered a robe that was hanging on the wall for for 'first class', I also oppose a government run health care plan for all.... I have had that experience, and it is not a good one....

More recently I was on a cruise, and conversed with a couple from England. The wife was on this trip against the advice of her doctor, as she had a heart condition and was waiting for an opening to have open heart surgery...in about 6 months........No, Thank You !

I also recall years ago, walking into a VA hospital in CA with the idea of applying for a job ..... Never made it to the interview.... what I saw in the hospital rooms led me walk right down the hallway and out the door at the other end......The conditions were just awful...No, Thank You! I don't want government care !

I believe in LEGAL immigration that not only requires a background check but also the typical health check...for one thing to stop the inflow of unchecked diseases, such as deadly strains of TB.......interestingly I don't hear politians talk about that...

and.....please !!!! don't pamper immigrants ! Let them learn english without catering to translating in their mother tongue!!!

I thought it was interesting that when I went to college, credit was given for immigrants for 'english as a second language', however when I applied for that credit, since english is my second language, I was told that I was not eligible....guess it was only available to illegals ?...
Well, I did take the 'round about way' and challenged a few course in the german language and recieved extra college credit that way......

I hope my small examples give thought for pause.......

[backtoschool]

No, it is a fictional example of atypical human behavior. Once the class realized that if no one studied, they would all fail, the group would start to work for passing grades for everyone. The A students would take on more of the load to preserve the class grade, even if they had to settle for a B average for everyone. The A students would be smart enough to not resort to envy and hatred of the slackers, since it would not be in their own self interest to allow the class to fail.

The assumption that everyone would just give up and fail is not human behavior - communities would never thrive with that attitude. It may be the conservatives view of the world that everyone is on their own and there should be no group effort to succeed, since helping others is foolish. How would a conservative ever do military service with that attitude?

I think my example of the Experiment in Capitalism is more relevant to what is happening in the US today.

Both examples seem to me to be examples of game theory. Standard game theory suggests that working for passing grades for everyone would be in the A student's best interest, so they would carry the whole class, (and perhaps "punish" the slackers in another way later). But if you believe in the prisoner's dilemma then you will accept that the A students might sabatoge the other students in the class if they believe it is in their best interest to do so (even if in reality it will cause the whole class to fail) If the A student's believe that they can get away with sabatoging the other student's, then they may do so, even if the reality is that everyone ends up failing if even one A student sabatoges or cheats.

Both examples are interesting, but neither really captures capitalism or communism. In a free market economy, the A students would be able to earn A's or sell their A's to the other students. In a communist economy, grades would not necessarily be tied to performance, but would be assigned based on the greatest need, or distributed based on rules set up by the rulers. There would be no long lasting, independent standards to determine what is an A or what is a failing grade. (for example those who made a petition to the professor that they needed the A to get into law school to support their invalid mother might have the greatest need of an A, and get an A assigned on the basis of need....) Grades would be arbitrarily assigned in each assignment based on an analysis of the needs of the class as a whole and the production abilities of the class as a whole. As the A students stopped producing, the class would not fail, but the grade would be redistributed based on the new balance of production and need. Someone would still get an A (either the neediest or the most productive, depending on how the professor was arbitrarily distributing grades).

In anycase, it's an interesting set of examples....

[WhatMoney]

Chain letter or not, it's a wonderful example of true human behavior and does in many ways resemble the typical behavior that was found (i.e.) in the former communist E. Germany with the interesting store front name of: 'DDR/Deutsche DEMOKRATISCHE REPUBLIK' (German Democratic Republic).......

No, it is a fictional example of atypical human behavior. Once the class realized that if no one studied, they would all fail, the group would start to work for passing grades for everyone. The A students would take on more of the load to preserve the class grade, even if they had to settle for a B average for everyone. The A students would be smart enough to not resort to envy and hatred of the slackers, since it would not be in their own self interest to allow the class to fail.

The assumption that everyone would just give up and fail is not human behavior - communities would never thrive with that attitude. It may be the conservatives view of the world that everyone is on their own and there should be no group effort to succeed, since helping others is foolish. How would a conservative ever do military service with that attitude?

I think my example of the Experiment in Capitalism is more relevant to what is happening in the US today.

[OHBOY]

Quote by 'What Money' : "Of course you know this is just a chain letter sent out by conservatives, and is an urban legend (Snopes traced it back to 1994)."



Chain letter or not, it's a wonderful example of true human behavior and does in many ways resemble the typical behavior that was found (i.e.) in the former communist E. Germany with the interesting store front name of: 'DDR/Deutsche DEMOKRATISCHE REPUBLIK' (German Democratic Republic).......

[keepinitreal]

A grasshopper spent the warm months singing away while the ant worked to store up food for winter. When winter arrived, the grasshopper found itself dying of hunger, and upon asking the ant for food was only rebuked for its idleness.

DISCLAIMER: THIS DID NOT REALLY HAPPEN. However, you may still read it and take away from it what you will.

[WhatMoney]

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had recently failed an entire class.

Of course you know this is just a chain letter sent out by conservatives, and is an urban legend (Snopes traced it back to 1994).

It is also a silly and irrelevant example of nothing that exists. It isn't even a good example of Communism, since there were winners and losers even in a Communist society. It certainly has nothing to do with Socialism or "spreading the wealth", although most conservatives seem to use the two words interchangeability, only showing their ignorance of economic systems.

When Obama signs a bill dictating that everyone in the USA, regardless of job (or not), occupation, experience, or education will get exactly the same salary, I might get worried.

Experiment in Capitalism

A college professor, who had never failed a student before, failed an entire class. The class had insisted that capitalism worked and that no one should get anything they didn’t earn. The professor then said, “OK we will have an experiment in this class on capitalism.”

All grades would be earned according to a curve style grading. Before the first test, pages in library books were ripped out by students in order to get a competitive edge over the other students in the class. Many of the students failed the test because they could not access the necessary information needed to pass. The students who cheated for the A threw the entire grading curve, causing even more to fail. Yet the A students continued to sabotage the other students to ensure their own high grade. The curve became so extreme between the A students and the remainder of the class, an investigation ensued.

The A students were found to be cheating and were thrown out. The other students were unable to access the necessary information and had to retake the class.

The entire experiment failed because the greed of a few, denied many.

The end.

[keepinitreal]

The Teacher's Lesson

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had recently failed an entire class.

That class had insisted that "spreading the wealth" in politics worked, and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on spreading the wealth".

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B.
The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy.

As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.

The second test average was a D!

No one was happy.

When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.

All failed, to their great surprise, and the professor told them that "spreading the wealth" would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

[WhatMoney]

The GOP's Misplaced Rage

The GOP's Misplaced RageReaganomics: Supply-Side Economics in Action and Impostor: How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy . His latest book, The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward, will be published by Palgrave Macmillan in October, 2009.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-08-12/the-gops-misplaced-rage/full/

[backtoschool]

"Trade Programs"... I never understood those until I almost worked for Fidelity. It's the big funds (and institutions) that move massive amounts of stocks in one fell swoop because some "trigger" is hit. I call this the butterfly affect as this trigger will cause another "Trade Program" to hit it's trigger and then the frenzy is on. It's incredible because it's not even humans doing this.

Great point justbroke. The trading programs move so fast, and control so big a percentage of available shares, and trigger on so many triggers, that they can bring a company down quite quickly if they are triggered.

[justbroke]

"Trade Programs"... I never understood those until I almost worked for Fidelity. It's the big funds (and institutions) that move massive amounts of stocks in one fell swoop because some "trigger" is hit. I call this the butterfly affect as this trigger will cause another "Trade Program" to hit it's trigger and then the frenzy is on. It's incredible because it's not even humans doing this.

[MSbklawyer]

If the shorting is happening as a naked short . . .

I had to look that term up. I thought that when someone shorted a stock they always had to borrow the share that they were selling.

Yeah, if you can short a stock without having to borrow the share from someone, I can see how that would push share prices down.

Those slimy bastiges.

[backtoschool]

Thats what I'm asking: How does shorting a company or a bank help bring it down? How does betting something will happen cause it to happen?

It lowers the stock price faster than the company can cover the losses and the company goes under for no real reason other than speculation. It creates a feeding frenzy. Program trade programs get triggered once the stock lowers a certain percentage and huge amounts of stock are dumped automatically onto the market, making the situation worse, and creating a downward spiral. If the shorting is happening as a naked short then, that short is unlimited and can push the price downward faster than it should be able to.

[momisery]

Nothing I post is to be considered legal advice. You'd be foolish to give credence to anything I write. I graduated last in my class from a fly-by-night law school that no longer exists; I never studied or went to class and I only post on forums when I'm very, very drunk. Howzat for a disclaimer

IF I bet something would lose it would probably have zero effect, but if some people with the power of money and influence behind them vote that way it will take it down as others will follow in kind. Voting that oil will go up of course pushes it up as the value goes up. Voting against the country to live in saying it will fail is not only unpatriotic, but again it creates a mind set that gee if George knows then he must be right as he is powerful... jmho and I am not drunk lol

[momisery]

Is there something untoward about that, BTS? I mean, is there something about shorting a stock (or a currency or, for that matter, a country as a whole) that actually contributes to its demise -- like a self-fulfilling prophecy or something?

Of all the things people are slamed for about being "unpatriotic", I believe this is ... Betting against your own nation, or hoping your nation fails so a certain policial party is tossed from office is horrible and it is asking for many Americans to suffer. How can people be so down on this nation? I am not a huge fan of war, kind of goes back to the Nam days when you were there to fight but micro managed from Washington. But I NEVER... EVER have wished that we fail, or that Nixon would die, or any of that crazy stuff. I do not believe in spreading lies to prove a point either. In highschool if you ran for office they expected a fair fight, not a smear campaign. I expect the same on a much higher level. Adults run for office, it is time they start acting like adults .. instead they spread lies, fill their speeches with false promises and half truths, and pretend to be what they are not... either country hick, or a beer drinking joe, or a good ole boy, or a common working class citizen. We seem to have none of that type ever running for office anymore. We have the insideres group instead. Very frustrating...