Political Discussion

[MSbklawyer]

I don't know if that comment makes you a racist per se, but it sure makes you sound intolerant of those different than you.

To say that you don't want Mexicans living in your neighborhood couldn't be a more xenophobic remark. And what exactly is the "culture" that you want to retain, that will not allow for anyone from a different background to participate as an equal? This country is a melting pot of many different cultures all of them valuable.

I didn't say I didn't want Mexicans living in my neighborhood. I said I don't want my neighborhood to be like a Mexican neighborhood -- that is, a neighborhood in Mexico. I never said that anyone shouldn't be able to participate as equal. But equal means equal for everybody. Equal doesn't mean that certain people get to ignore certain laws simply because they're unpopular or inconvenient.

The culture that I want to retain is to be able to speak to the average person in English and be understood; to be able to order at McDonald's in English and be understood; to be able to send my kids to a good public school with a rigorous academic program where they don't have to hire a special teacher for the kids who don't speak English, or dummy down the curriculum for kids with parents who don't value education. I want it to be unusual, very unusual, for a girl to get married when she's 15; or to have two or three kids of her own before she's 18 by two or three different fathers. I want American law, not Shiara law. I don't want the neighbors having rooster fights or keeping goats in their back yards. Those are just a few examples of what I mean by the culture I want to retain.

Culture is hard to define, but it's easy to recognize. If you go to Mexico and go off the beaten tourist path, if you go to a bar that the locals go to, you'll understand immediately that you're in a different culture.

Too, I guess I just don't understand why people want to leave their home, their native land, and go to a foreign country and once there try to implement the same policies, politics and customs in their new home that made their old home a place they wanted to leave to begin with.

[backtoschool]

Absolutely! They came here for a better life and that's exactly what they built for themselves and us.

These "ancestors" you talk about were very proud of their heritage, but loved their country, the USA a lot more and it showed.

I have never heard of a President Bush or Obama of 100 years ago welcoming people in here to use our services for free at the same time they get paid cash and send that cash back home.

Goingdown, your argument is always thrown in every time the illegal immigration issue is discussed and it's just so old and worn out because anyone with half a brain knows the immigrants of yesterday and most immigrants of today are not the same!!!

We also used to give medical exams and quarantine sick immigrants to prevent the spread of communicable diseases.

How will YOU feel if you and your family member become infected over one of these third world diseases? Hmmm?

Here this will make you feel warm all over http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHHfP-a0-2Q

Banca Rotta, I think you say a lot of interesting things about the economy, and when the discussion is about economics, I tend to agree with you.

But on this issue of immigration, a lot of what you says sounds like some old speech dug up from Father Coughlin in 1930's or someone like him. I know times are tough, but why go back to the hatred and fear of the 1930's. I would like to keep moving forward, not go back to our darker times....

[backtoschool]

I don't think anyone meant to 'equate' the seriousness of crimes like rape and murder with illegal immigration. Never the less, we can't pick and choose which laws we obey and which we ignore. That's exactly the way things are run in Mexico: Some laws apply to some people sometime -- depending on who got bribed or who the offender knows or is kin to. That's the very source of the corruption and graft that make Mexico a place that Mexicans want to leave for some place else.

I don't have a problem with Mexicans either. I have some as clients and friends. I lusted after a few senioritas whose paths I was fortunate enough to cross in my younger years and even learned some Spanish vocabulary you won't find in a standard dictionary.

But I don't apologize for wanting to retain my culture. I don't want to live in Mexico or anything like Mexico and I don't want my neighborhood to be like a Mexican neighborhood. If I did, I'd immigrate to Mexico. Legally. If that makes me a racist then so be it.

I don't know if that comment makes you a racist per se, but it sure makes you sound intolerant of those different than you.

To say that you don't want Mexicans living in your neighborhood couldn't be a more xenophobic remark. And what exactly is the "culture" that you want to retain, that will not allow for anyone from a different background to participate as an equal? This country is a melting pot of many different cultures all of them valuable.

[banca rotta]

T People who came here for a better life? Isn't that what our own ancestors did in the 1700s, 1800s, and 1900s?

Absolutely! They came here for a better life and that's exactly what they built for themselves and us.

These "ancestors" you talk about were very proud of their heritage, but loved their country, the USA a lot more and it showed.

I have never heard of a President Bush or Obama of 100 years ago welcoming people in here to use our services for free at the same time they get paid cash and send that cash back home.

Goingdown, your argument is always thrown in every time the illegal immigration issue is discussed and it's just so old and worn out because anyone with half a brain knows the immigrants of yesterday and most immigrants of today are not the same!!!

We also used to give medical exams and quarantine sick immigrants to prevent the spread of communicable diseases.

How will YOU feel if you and your family member become infected over one of these third world diseases? Hmmm?

Here this will make you feel warm all over http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHHfP-a0-2Q

[MSbklawyer]

I don't think anyone meant to 'equate' the seriousness of crimes like rape and murder with illegal immigration. Never the less, we can't pick and choose which laws we obey and which we ignore. That's exactly the way things are run in Mexico: Some laws apply to some people sometime -- depending on who got bribed or who the offender knows or is kin to. That's the very source of the corruption and graft that make Mexico a place that Mexicans want to leave for some place else.

I don't have a problem with Mexicans either. I have some as clients and friends. I lusted after a few senioritas whose paths I was fortunate enough to cross in my younger years and even learned some Spanish vocabulary you won't find in a standard dictionary.

But I don't apologize for wanting to retain my culture. I don't want to live in Mexico or anything like Mexico and I don't want my neighborhood to be like a Mexican neighborhood. If I did, I'd immigrate to Mexico. Legally. If that makes me a racist then so be it.

[Meatstick]

There are rules and then there are rules.

Equating the breaking of immigration laws with horrible crimes like rape and murder, like some other posters have done in this thread, is simply ridiculous.

Simply put, choosing which rules you are going to follow and then to attempt to justify it in this thread is equally ridiculous.

Most of these immigration laws were ignored when America needed the labor when times were good, and now that the economy has turned sour, these forgotten and unenforced laws must now be resurrected from the dead, to save our country from what? People who came here for a better life? Isn't that what our own ancestors did in the 1700s, 1800s, and 1900s?

Most of those who came here in the timeframes you listed did so legally unlike the cesspool who are coming here now from many different countries. They also came here to be Americans and to try and live what once was the American Dream. They did NOT come here making all kinds of demands that we capitulate our laws, way of life and culture so they can have a free ride all along disobeying multiple immigration laws that millions before them successfully obeyed.

To take this argument to its extreme, what do you think the Native American "Indians" thought about our ancestors coming here?

Just what is your point here ?? Have you no other arguement that it forces you to fall back on a one sentence barb with absolutely no substance to back it up ?? Which group of Native Americans are you saying were here first and lay their rightful claim to the entire North American continent. Since the beginning of time land has been taken from those who have been conquered including land of varying tribes of Native Americans. Maybe I should hold a bitter grudge against those who conquered my ancestors 2000+ years ago in what is now Europe. I am in no way trying to minimize what happened to Native Americans or any other group of people.

And I will make a prediction. I'll bet you that nothing will be done to truly stop "illegal" immigration 5 years from now, 10 years from now. Oh sure, politicians will talk about it, but nothing will really be done about it.

You can't reallly argue against the above. The last 50 years or so it has gotten worse and worse.

So, accept it and adjust to it. And yes, try to make the best of it. I think some of you could use some fiestas in your lives.

Accept it and adjust to it ? How about those who come here for work and a better way of life come here to be Americans and assimilate into the American way of life. You know learn to read,write and speak english. How about obeying laws and petitioning for permanent resident status and later down the line citizenship. You can come here and blend in with American society and still maintain your heritage, it is actually practiced quite well by millions who have immigrated here in the past.

FYI, I live in Arizona about 90 miles from the border of Mexico and see on a daily basis what really goes on. I don't think you will find anyone who is against people immigrating here, just do it the legal way just like millions have done it and the millions who continue to do it on a yearly basis.

[GoingDown]

This is comical, nobody here will dispute most are very hard workers. What you all seem blind to is the fact the moment they cross the border without proper documentation they are already breaking the law.

By some of the logic that has been posted I should be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want without regard to the rules of law simply because I am an honest, hard working and a good neighbor. Barry must be proud of you all.

There are rules and then there are rules.

Equating the breaking of immigration laws with horrible crimes like rape and murder, like some other posters have done in this thread, is simply ridiculous.

Most of these immigration laws were ignored when America needed the labor when times were good, and now that the economy has turned sour, these forgotten and unenforced laws must now be resurrected from the dead, to save our country from what? People who came here for a better life? Isn't that what our own ancestors did in the 1700s, 1800s, and 1900s?

To take this argument to its extreme, what do you think the Native American "Indians" thought about our ancestors coming here?

And I will make a prediction. I'll bet you that nothing will be done to truly stop "illegal" immigration 5 years from now, 10 years from now. Oh sure, politicians will talk about it, but nothing will really be done about it.

So, accept it and adjust to it. And yes, try to make the best of it. I think some of you could use some fiestas in your lives.

[banca rotta]

This is comical, nobody here will dispute most are very hard workers. What you all seem blind to is the fact the moment they cross the border without proper documentation they are already breaking the law.

By some of the logic that has been posted I should be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want without regard to the rules of law simply because I am an honest, hard working and a good neighbor. Barry must be proud of you all.

As I said earlier the rules only apply to whats left of the middle class and small business owners.

Other then that no one else seems to play by the rules. Not the illegals, not the politicians, not the banksters, just the hard worker.

That's why all of the "unexpected" bad news that comes out daily about the economy is expected to me.

[Meatstick]

This is comical, nobody here will dispute most are very hard workers. What you all seem blind to is the fact the moment they cross the border without proper documentation they are already breaking the law.

By some of the logic that has been posted I should be able to do whatever I want, whenever I want without regard to the rules of law simply because I am an honest, hard working and a good neighbor. Barry must be proud of you all.

[BobMango]

Sigh,,,

There are lots of anecdotes about how nice these people are. That's not the point. Some time in the future there will come a point when we can't handle the inflow. What if we shared a border with China? How many of them would want to come to America for a better future? (Insert accusations of being anti-Chinese here.)

The argument for open borders is just another form of income distribution. "We have so much and they have so little." I'm all for helping out, but not if I'm being forced to. Having these people migrate contrary to our laws and regulations is the equivalent of squatters occupying your house and demanding to be fed and clothed as well.

Lastly, why must the open borders advocates always revert to the racist or xenophobic accusations? "If you only knew them you'd like them and then you wouldn't want them to leave." It's a ridiculous argument and lacks any relation to the problem and more importantly, it's intellectually lazy.

If you are being honest in your position that uncontrolled immigration is a net benefit then you need to advocate for eliminating the border patrol and treating our borders with Mexico and Canada like the border between California and Oregon.

[ryan]

Wow...what GoingDown said echoes my sentiments as well.

I live in a large midwestern city with a huge Hispanic population (mainly from Mexico)...and I just see how hard these people work, and how tightly knit they are as families. They are so devoted to their kids its inspiring.

I mean they will do ANYTHING to support and feed the little ones, and they often don't avail themselves of the public aid others do.

...and I also agree they have been wonderful neighbors, friends and their hospitality has been a comfort while I have been going thru rough waters.

Its easy to talk 'statistics, but when you are face to face with someone, you may feel differently.

[GoingDown]

No matter how many laws are passed, or who gets elected, you are never going to be able to shut down the border, and all airports and seaports sufficiently to stop "illegal" immigration. A better word for it is "Migration". What we are witnessing is a huge migration in progress, and nothing will stop it or even slow it down, nor should anything stop it or slow it down. People have been moving around all over the earth since the dawn of man, and nothing is going to stop it.

If you got to know these people better, you would like them. I do.

They are the best neighbors I have ever had. They have helped me survive this economic downturn in so many ways.

[BobMango]

Are we as worried about Canadians sneaking into our borders as we are about Hispanics? I don't see Fox News talking much about the huge Canadian border problem we are having. Border patrols have always been, at least on some level, about keeping Minorities out. Because we are less welcoming to those that seem "different" in some way than ourselves (different language, different facial features, etc....) xenophobia does come to play in border discussions.

No, we're not as worried about our northern border, but not for the reason you suppose. When attacking a problem (i.e. our porous borders) you generally go after the biggest issue first (see 80/20 rule). So the reason to secure our southern border is not because brown people are coming across it, but because hordes of unknown non-citizens are. If we had the same volume moving south across that border I would have the same concerns there.

...I am merely pointing out that if demand for drugs goes down, the drug problem at our borders will also go down. ...

Again, this is akin to blaming the victim. As in: If that woman hadn't dressed like that she wouldn't have been raped; if America were nicer to Muslims then 9/11 wouldn't have happened; if people didn't do drugs we wouldn't have drug related killings or drug smuggling. At some point responsibility for bad actions has to accrue to the bad actors, not the victims or bystanders.

So stop saying we're xenophobic or racist. We have perfectly valid reasons for wanting to secure our borders. And they have nothing to do with the bad intentions or intolerance you keep trying to tar us with.

[backtoschool]

Racism and xenophobia are common claims made by liberals when the issue of border security is debated. The reason is liberals feel shielded with that response because they believe no one will claim racism and xenophobia are acceptable reasons to protect our borders.

The truth is MOST Americans who prefer our borders be protected have no idea what xenophobic is (nor are they) and can't fathom why some wish to frame this issue around race.

Our border security should be addressed as any free country would. In fact, I propose we apply the laws and punishment of the country of origin for every illegal we find in our borders.

For the record, the moment an illegal crosses our border they are no longer "innocent" regardless their intentions.

I agree with you. We should not wink at crimes committed by citizens. I'm sure Governor Blagoyevich doesn't believe we turn a blind eye to non-violent crimes. Ask Scooter Libby how he feels. Stoning is considered cruel punishment and barred by our wonderful Constitution.

Changing the topic and the reason to drug abuse by lawful citizens is pretenseful. The drug problem in our country is not related to the border security and illegal alien debate.

I thought I replied to this already but I just realized I hadn't yet.

I think you make some interesting points OhioFiler, but of course I do not agree with you.

Are we as worried about Canadians sneaking into our borders as we are about Hispanics? I don't see Fox News talking much about the huge Canadian border problem we are having. Border patrols have always been, at least on some level, about keeping Minorities out. Because we are less welcoming to those that seem "different" in some way than ourselves (different language, different facial features, etc....) xenophobia does come to play in border discussions.

And there seems to be some confusion regarding my comments on non-violent crimes in my previous post. I think we should wink at non-violent crimes. We should be a compassionate country that forgives people and gives them a second chance. Nobody should have to pay indefinitely for non-violent crimes that they committed in the past. Many illegal immigrants are productive members of society and we should welcome them into our economy wholeheartedly and forgive the minor transgression that brought them to our borders.

One of the main reasons the drug problem is related to border security, is that those in favor of border security keep citing the drug problem as a reason to beef up patrols and discriminate against citizens and non-citizens alike. I am merely pointing out that if demand for drugs goes down, the drug problem at our borders will also go down. I am not sure how I am being "pretenseful". I am a pretty down to earth girl, who believes that we should not be targeting innocent people and creating an atmosphere of hatred and fear.

[OhioFiler]

Racism and xenophobia have never led to any positive or productive outcome in this country. I have no desire to go back to the fear and racial hatred of the 1930's. Although our economy is suffering, targeting innocent people because of their heritage is not a productive option and never will be.

For every "convict" that Castro sent over, there were many many more productive hard-working Cubans that came over here and helped make this country productive and prosperous.

I am of the belief that many people, both citizens and non-citizens, break laws at some time in their lives and are not necessarily deserving of being "prosecuted with vigor". Why should we wink and turn the other way to some non-violent crimes, yet pursue other non-violent crimes with vigor? Who gets to decide which crimes should be ignored? Certainly I don't want to be on the public stoning committee.....

And frankly, if there wasn't such a huge demand for drugs, there would not be such a huge supply. Let's concentrate on treatment for chronic boredom, pain, and depression, which is what is causing the demand for drugs. If there is no market for the drugs, the problems solves itself....

Racism and xenophobia are common claims made by liberals when the issue of border security is debated. The reason is liberals feel shielded with that response because they believe no one will claim racism and xenophobia are acceptable reasons to protect our borders.

The truth is MOST Americans who prefer our borders be protected have no idea what xenophobic is (nor are they) and can't fathom why some wish to frame this issue around race.

Our border security should be addressed as any free country would. In fact, I propose we apply the laws and punishment of the country of origin for every illegal we find in our borders.

For the record, the moment an illegal crosses our border they are no longer "innocent" regardless their intentions.

I agree with you. We should not wink at crimes committed by citizens. I'm sure Governor Blagoyevich doesn't believe we turn a blind eye to non-violent crimes. Ask Scooter Libby how he feels. Stoning is considered cruel punishment and barred by our wonderful Constitution.

Changing the topic and the reason to drug abuse by lawful citizens is pretenseful. The drug problem in our country is not related to the border security and illegal alien debate.