Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!) (updated: 04/28/2015)

Welcome to the Bankruptcy Forum. Bankruptcy (BK) Forum is known as and will be referred to as BKF hereinafter. In order to ensure a long term success of our vibrant community, we have established certain rules and guidelines to which everyone must adhere to. Please take your time to carefully read our rules, before you start to participate in the community.

Things you agree to do: (BKF) users agree to use the search function before starting a new thread. This prevents duplicate discussions and allows for better organized topics.

All BKF users agree to read the sticky posts which may be available at the top of a forum page. These Sticky posts often contain valuable information. They may also outline more rules and guidelines specific for that particular forum, stickies are put in place by that forums moderator(s) or admin(s).

Things you agree not to do:

All BKF users agree not to call people names or write a post simply to make a personal attack, or get a negative reaction; this behavior is not allowed on our forum. The use of derogatory language aimed at anyone will be severely dealt with. There is no need to agree with each other, or to even like each other. However, by signing onto you agree to treat each member and guest with the respect they deserve. No threats or personal attacks will be allowed.

All BKF users agree not to discuss, engage, or encourage any behavior or activity which violates the law. Discussion of drugs, violence, murder, theft, vandalism, fraud or any other issue which could be used to help individuals break the law is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to "bump" old threads, unless there is a specific benefit to the community by doing so. But in most cases, please don't post in very old threads, instead start new threads.

All BKF users agree not to attempt/use another members account. It is against BKF rules to use any account other than your own. Impersonating another member will result in an immediate ban. It is also against the rules to open more than one account in your own name without permission from a moderator or administrator. If you have been banned for any reason, it is against the rules to open another account. If you were banned temporarily and you are caught using another account you will be banned permanently. Choosing a moniker which is similar in either sound or spelling as a moderator or administrator is strictly forbidden.

All BKF users agree not to private message any moderator, admin, or other member with questions related to their personal circumstances (Questions about the forum or issues with the forum are ok). This forum only works when members share their experience and insights with everyone.

Things you agree not to post:
All BKF users agree not to post any derogatory/racist/or sexist remarks. This includes attachments, links and all information contained within posts, signatures, and avatars, failure to comply with this rule will result in a permanent ban.

All BKF users agree not to post any copyrighted or trademarked information without the express written permission of the owner(s) / proper citation of source.

All BKF users agree not to post any real names, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, social security numbers, or any other personal details (their own or other people's).

All BKF users agree not to post links, pictures, attachments, videos, or the like of pornographic content, objectionable material or extreme violence, whether cartoon or real.

All BKF users agree not to use BKF for advertising purposes without a written contract between yourself/company/agent and the administration of BKF. Blatant advertising will result in a ban.

All BKF users agree not to spam the forums. Spam includes but is not limited to posting erroneous, non-relevant-useless, off-topic, or meaningless posts. Spam may also include posts which contain no text, or large areas of blank space between lines. Simply posting emoticons without text is considered spam. BKF is the largest bankruptcy message board and all the content is intended to help other users. Please help us improve the quality of our forum by making sure that your posts are well-worded, spell checked, grammatically correct and syntaxed.

Regarding actions of moderators and administrators:

The forum is no place to air out your opinion or be judgmental of our staff and its capabilities.

All BKF users agree not to abuse or mistreat moderators or administrators. It is against BKF rules to post any information regarding bans or any other action taken by a member of the moderating or administrative team. If you wish to discuss bans or warnings please do so via PM. To place a complaint against a moderator, send a PM to a super moderator. All Moderators are equal, any decision made by a moderator must be adhered to. If a moderator tells you something you do not like, do not go to another moderator looking for a different answer. If you are caught doing this you will be banned. The moderators work as a team and respect the decisions made by their peers and will help enforce them unless an administrator tells them differently.
If you have an issue with how the forum is run, then notify one of our administrator and we will look into the situation. We have in the past and still do appreciate any input that you offer this forum. But critical input and/or judgmental postings towards the staff will result in you getting banned.

Should you find a thread offensive or out of line, then notify a Mod in a PM so they can evaluate the situation and do the action deemed necessary.

All moderators do have active "other" lives outside of the forum and help moderate this forum in their spare time throughout the days and weeks.

If you have a problem with a member or Mod follow the proper channels of reporting it.

BKF reserves the right to delete any posts which contain anti-BKF comments or discussion. Any bashing of moderators or administrators, or any of their discussion or actions will also be deleted, and the responsible posting party(s) will be banned. Any public anti-BKF advertising, communication, or posts on another forum will result in permanent bans as well.

All warnings and bans are decided by individual moderators and administrators. Warnings are preferable to bans however, for serious offenses and repeat abusers bans will go into effect. The length of the bans can vary from several hours to permanent.

All messages posted or sent including through PM are the property of

All BKF users agree not to advertiser on the forum (Niether by posting, private messaging or using your signature). If you are a company/attorney/legal adviser wishing to advertise on the site or sell a product, you must contact the head administrator and inquire about our advertising packages.

All bankruptcy related opinions expressed on are those of their authors and not necessarily of BKF, its staff or representatives.

You agree not to copy any material/post/content from BKF without written permission from our head administrator .

By posting on this forum you agree to these terms and conditions, including any punishment deemed appropriate by moderators or administrators in the event of an offense.

Administrators/Moderators can change these rules at any time without prior notice.
See more
See less

If u start w/ ch7, can u always convert to ch13, & if not, why not?

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • If u start w/ ch7, can u always convert to ch13, & if not, why not?

    have lots (~90k) of credit card debt due to job loss; no assets except home; own home w/ non filing (bk) spouse; little unprotected equity in this property ( less than 2-3k at most); also have a 2nd home w/ 3 indigent siblings on title who are living in the house (w/ kids) w/ about 10k unprotected equity. Different BK attnys advised different things. Some said to try for ch7 and if it does not work out, convert to a Ch13; some said you can lose the house if you open the ch7 door as you do not have an absolute right for a conversion to ch13. thanks for any insight.

    Here is one answer from teh web to this question . I dont get what is meant by 'if you start in 7 the value of the asset will have a larger affect on your payments in 13'...

    'I typically do not try to file a chapter 7 when there is an asset question for a variety of reasons. Among them if you start in 7 the value of the asset will have a larger affect on your payments in 13. If you start in 7, then convert due to asset value you may not be able to dismiss as the chapter 7 trustee will try to force conversion to a chapter 7 so that he can liquidate the asset. Its safest to start in chapter 13 with an experienced attorney so they can set up a fair payment plan that you can afford to make.'

  • #2
    No absolute right to convert 7 to 13:

    Marrama v. Citizens Bank of Massachusetts 549 U.S. 365 (2007) Google and then read it.

    Case if converted it may not be subject to dismissal. Instead it may be reconverted if 13 “fails”:

    11 USC 1307(b) and (c) Google and then read it.

    If you file as 7 and then try to convert:

    1. Must do so before the discharge is entered.
    2. Will have to defend your position if the Chapter 7 trustee objects.
    3. If Trustee objects it is unlikely that you will win your argument.
    4. If you are worried about non exempt property and are not willing to risk the loss of such property do not file a 7.



    • #3
      thanks for the input and the citation. Here are some questions just so I am clearer ( i have been investigating ch13 , so I am not as up to speed on ch7; )...

      '1. Must do so before the discharge is entered.'

      --discharge of the 7? and discharge means that the debt is discharged?

      Also, When is discharge usually done relative to the filing? In fact, what is the timeline of ch7 events? Is the following the high level steps in a ch7?

      1. debtor filing ; 2. ch7 trustee assignment; 3. ch7 trustee approval/objection of case/filing;

      4a1. for an objection ....> 4a2. debtor/filer response; 4a3. ch7 court adjudication of arguments of debtor and trustee; 4a4. ch7 court discharges debt or tries to get the assets .

      4b1. for an approval ....> 4b2. court discharges the debt , if this is the right term (cha ching; done)

      '2. Will have to defend your position if the Chapter 7 trustee objects.'

      --if the c7 trustee objects to my filing for the 7?

      So are you saying that I would be compelled to defend my position and could not do the conversion to ch13 at this point?

      So you are saying that I cd safely convert to a ch13 only when there is zero objection from the ch7 trustee?


      I am curious why three attnys recommended the approach to ' try for a ch7 and convert to 13 if the ch7 attny is intent on seizing the property'

      Here is one attny's answer to the same question on avvo. He says bad faith/fraud wd be the condition to prevent a conversion to 13. How does this square with anyone's knowledge of this?

      'You will be allowed to convert to 13 unless you have filed in bad faith (for ex. concealed assets). But if you are planning to have an option to convert to Chapter 13, you need to make sure you are qualified as a Chapter 13 Debtor. You mention that you lost your job. For Chapter 13, you generally need to have regular income from wages, retirement, or business. If you convert to Chapter 13, but are unable to confirm a Plan, or unable to make your Plan payments, you will be sent back to Chapter 7.
      If the only non-exempt assets are 2 properties with a total of 12K of unprotected equity, unless you have an extremely aggressive bankruptcy trustee, you are likely to have a no-asset Chapter 7. Most trustees will not bother with opening an estate when there is a minimal amount of equity. Have you taken into account the liquidation costs of the properties?


      • #4
        These are the bare facts: a Chapter 7 takes on a life of its own once you file. Even if you don't show up for your 341 Meeting or your want to convert, the Trustee can continue to administer the case as a Chapter 7 if it is more beneficial to the creditors (at large). Conversion is an option, from Chapter 7 to Chapter 13, but the Trustee can object to that conversion. This is different than conversion from Chapter 13 to Chapter 7.

        As you are learning, most of this depends if there is something to administer and if the Trustee believes that they can get money for the creditors (and earn a commission). There are many different (panel) Trustees and their aggressiveness can vary greatly... even the same Trustee.
        Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
        Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
        Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

        I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.


        • #5
          'Conversion is an option, from Chapter 7 to Chapter 13, but the Trustee can object to that conversion.'
          --what are acceptable grounds for such objection? The attny from avvo said fraud/bad faith would such grounds.

          My question - IF a ch7 trsutee makes any objection (other than fraud, which I know I am not guilty of) , at that point, can I convert to 13 w/o even doing some sort of defense and continuing in ch7 ?

          yes, there might be 12k of non exempt dough, but the main reason the 3 attnys recommended this is the fact that there are others on title in the two properties and they would wage a lawsuit to stop a sale and argue undue hadship. this of course is a whole other set of contingencies, but one thing wd be true, is that it would be more hassle and $ ( 3-5k is the cost to defend such a lawsuit coming from my spouse and siblinge EACH.. so assuming they do teh lawsuits , which wd be a 100 pct certainty - and both hsoueholds are idigent w/ kids- the max teh trustee wd get wd be 12-6 = 6k opr 12-10=2k ( assumin they win the lawsuits). Lots of headaches for whatever commission they get from 2- 6k , and most ch7 attny dont want such headaches , say thse attnys, but they rcognize that there are aggressive trustees out there in my district of 50 ch7 trustees ( but again, in thier experience most are looking for the big fish), and this case, they said, you can convert.

          yes, I get that if ch13 fails, I'd be back in ch 7 land and wd risk my homes loss. I have spoken w/ around 10 attnys and all said I'd be confirmed.....

          .....assiming my (professionally done and paid for) home evals are accepted .. says this debtor sheepishly


          • #6
            The bottom line on this will be your Trustee. You won't know to whom the case will be assigned. Call it luck of the draw. Your valuations may be accepted as-is, or you'll get a (panel) Trustee that likes to find stuff. No one can speculate on this. Attorneys, and even lay people with experience, can only tell you how to adjust your perceptions. You need to know your worse case and what you would do in that situation. In many cases, these are simply not worth fighting.

            You ask about grounds for an objection; you were already informed that fraud and bad faith are the usual objections. Bad faith could be simply that you don't want the Trustee to get the property and you are purposefully manipulating the system (converting to Chapter 13) to avoid a liquidation.

            Once you convert to a Chapter 13 after a Chapter 7 Trustee has objected, you can't go to Chapter 13 and then convert back to Chapter 7. This is specially what is addressed by both bad faith and fraud.
            Chapter 7 (No Asset/Non-Consumer) Filed (Pro Se) 7/08 (converted from Chapter 13 - 2/10)
            Status: (Auto) Discharged and Closed! 5/10
            Visit My BKForum Blog: justbroke's Blog

            I am not an attorney. Any advice provided is not legal advice.


            Unconfigured Ad Widget